Clank, ticking, and misfire - 4.7L

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MetalJim Dodge Dakota JOIN HERE 12/21/2004 04:50:56	Subject: Clank, ticking, and misfire - 4.7L IP: Logged Message: Lately(past month or so) I've noticed that when I first start the truck that it has alot of valve noise going on. I knew that I had to change the oil and I hadn't really been keeping the maintenance up on the truck as much as I should have. Well today my wife comes home and tells me that its making a ticking noise and the CEL is on. My scanner showed a misfire on cyl 6(P0306). I pulled that plug and it looked very worn, and it also appeared blackish. That was the only plug that appeared that way. The rest were terribly worn, but they had a brown color to them. As far as the other things in disrepair - the air filter was completely clogged, and the oil was thick as molassas. It just sickened me that I had let the oil go so long. It really just was on the virge of flat out being sludge. After changing the plugs, oil, oil filter, and air filter - this tick was still there. I pulled the plug on #6 after running it a bit and sure enough there was oil on the plug. After starting it a couple of times I also noticed a loud(relative to the tick) clank when I first crank it up. It doesn't seem to matter too much how long I leave it sit - it always clanks when I start the motor. Back to the ticking. To me, it sounds like one of the rockers clanking around...BUT the problem is I can't seem to pinpoint the noise exactly. What I mean is, the noise is definately coming from the top of the motor, but I can't really tell if its the left or right bank thats louder. Its almost like its just coming from the center of the motor. I tried stethascoping for it with no real luck. I've gotta believe that the clank and tick are related - it just doesn't make sense if they weren't. I took it a little further and did a compression test on Cyl 6 and 4, using 4 as kind of a baseline for a good cyl. Both came up with 115 psig. I suppose the thing I'm having a problem with is - how is the oil getting in cyl 6? My theory on the tick is that its a bad lash adjuster. I can't seem to tie a bad lash adjuster to oil in the combustion chamber. Maybe its not a lash adjuster? Maybe the tick isn't related to the misfire at all? Then why did they happen at the same time? I just need some help on a direction to go here. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
MetalJim Dodge Dakota JOIN HERE 12/21/2004 16:11:48	RE: Clank, ticking, and misfire - 4.7L IP: Logged Message: Ok, well I ordered a new lash adjuster, a couple of valve seals, and cam cover gaskets. I got to thinking a bit more about the oily cylinder/misfire issue today, and the valve seals came to mind as something that would possibly leak oil to the cyl. I'm really not sure if thats the problem. At the very least it wouln't be too difficult to fix if it is the seals so I ordered a couple. I know this probably gets said more often than not, but this misfire is an urgent issue for me. My Quad Cab is the family car and I have 2 kids to lug around. They don't quite fit in the Eclipse. The truck is also my winter car(4x4). Bridgestone Pontenza S-01s(summer tires) on a FWD 5spd in the snow just doesn't work well, and it's already snowed here once in PA. So this is an update - and one of those urgency bumps. If anyone else has any other ideas please let me know.
jeremiah2360 Dodge Dakota JOIN HERE 12/21/2004 17:14:24	RE: Clank, ticking, and misfire - 4.7L IP: Logged Message: Jim I can`t help you much with your problem but I know exactly what you mean about the noise. I get clacking on cold starts sometimes and figured it was the lashers bleeding down. (When warmed up I do get a little ticking) Tried to pin-point it one morning and just like you I got the sense it was coming from the center of the motor. I almost believe it`s piston slap. It does go away after a few minutes. I believe you can re-use the valve cover gaskets FWIW. Too bad you say the plug is oily and not fouled. Then it might of just been a bad injector. At least your compression is good, but I think a bleed down test is needed?(I`m not a mechanic,just there is more than just testing for compression) After you fix the mechanical problem(s) I strongly suggest using Auto-Rx to clean your motor, go with the severe schedule that is outlined on their web site. FOLLOW THE DIRECTIONS EXACTLY. Auto-Rx is a gentle long term cleaner and works well. The oil return galleys in the 4.7 are small and you don`t want any build-up in them. Auto-Rx will clean those and someone here posted it fixed a noisy lasher in their 4.7. Go here for independent(no Auto-Rx affiliation) opinions and experiances; http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=forum;f=5 Good Luck 03 qc 4.7 auto 4x4 45k
MetalJim Dodge Dakota JOIN HERE 12/21/2004 22:39:28	RE: Clank, ticking, and misfire - 4.7L IP: Logged Message: Thanks Jeremiah. Thats good and bad news about the gaskets. Bad that I bought a set, but good to know I can tear em off as many times as I need to without getting new ones. Now that I think about it, its actually great news, because the right side gasket(where cyl 6 is) wont be in for another week - but my lash adjuster and stem seal will be in tomorrow. So yeah, that means I can go ahead and do that work right away. Great. Its funny you mention Auto-Rx, because I went to PepBoys today to look specifically for it. I read a couple of posts about using it - and I saw that one where it cleared up the ticking alltogether. I couldn't find it in the store though. I ended up buying what seemed to me to be closest thing to it CD2 Oil Detergent. This stuff says that you just stick a bottle in at or between changes and leave it in there. Its not like a flush where you run it for 5 minutes or something like that...(45 minutes later)...but after reading some posts on that site I think I'll definately be getting some AutoRX. Thanks for the link. Some good info on there. I was hoping that I wouldn't have to do a leakdown, because I don't have a leakdown tester. But since the misfire cylinder seems to have good compression, I really don't think I need to do it. My reasoning there is that if the compression was bad - where is it bad - but its not bad, so I'm not too worried about valve or ring damage on that cylinder. I think it has to be coming from somewhere else upstream - like the intake valve stem seal on #6. I was also reading on here about the belly pan gasket - that it could cause a leak? But I'm not sure if its just an air leak or an oil leak is also associated with this gasket. And if it is an oil leak - would it leak oil into only one cylinder? I ran a couple of test today and have some more info that will help us figure out this ticking problem. Firstly, I noticed that the ticking noise was a little less audible at idle today. Its still there though. The ticking gets louder when you put the engine under more load. The more load - the louder it gets. So the tick volume doesn't really increase with RPM - it increases with the gas pedal. Also, the ticking dissapears above ~3000-3200RPM - even under full load(WOT). To me this reinforces my idea about it being a dead lash adjuster, but I'm open to any suggestions on it being something else. I'm going to run a compression test on all the cylinders tonight. To see if I can pinpoint my dead lash adjuster...if it is infact a dead lash adjuster thats ticking on me. I may even pull the cover off and check it out, now that I know the gaskets are reusable. All I want for Christmas is a FSM.
GraphiteDak GenIII 12/21/2004 23:49:28	RE: Clank, ticking, and misfire - 4.7L IP: Logged Message: So how plugged was the air filter? I'm trying to remember just how the crank case vent was connected to the stock intake tube (before I hacked mine). I was thinking maybe at hard throttle and a VERY dirty intake filter maybe the intake pulled some oil into it from the crank case breather? Your air filter would HAVE to be PLUGGED pretty bad for that. And that it is only happening to #6 is weird. Unless it just runs down the intake to that one much more than the others. Try just driving it a bit after you replaced ALL of the filters/oil, etc and see if it slows or stops. Damn. Tough luck. I guess it's a tough motor, but not tough enough for lack of maintenance?
GraphiteDak GenIII 12/21/2004 23:53:18	RE: Clank, ticking, and misfire - 4.7L IP: Logged Message: I just walked out to my garage and looked at my original filter box which is not being used on my truck. The crankcase breather hose DOES connect on the top of the filter box that way it has filtered air from the main filter. (old cars used those air filters on the carb. The crank case breather had it's OWN filter and was OUTSIDE the main filter). So, who knows. If your main filter WAS plugged, and I mean plugged bad enough. I could see the intake pulling air through the crank case breather hose. Which CAN pull oil from the engine. That's just a thought. Never seen it happen though.
MetalJim Dodge Dakota JOIN HERE 12/22/2004 02:55:14	RE: Clank, ticking, and misfire - 4.7L IP: Logged Message: Its kind of a funny story about the air filter. We have a bunch of big giant trees next to the driveway and there are plenty of chipmunks, squirrels, and other vermon around the place. A few months after we got the truck , my wife was telling me about this angry squirrel that jumped on the windshield wiper after she started the truck one day. She said that it was screeching at her through the window and was basically acting all pissed off. She turned the wipers on and scared him off. I didn't think much of it at the time except that it was really funny. A couple weeks later my wife noticed a rattling sound coming from the engine compartment. When I popped the hood I couldn't believe my eyes. The entire top of the engine was covered with nuts. Well as it turns out that angry squirrel was getting set for winter in our engine bay. The nuts were piled from the inside top of the valve covers all the way up to the bottom of the big black intake cover. It looked like a pyramid of nuts. When he ran out of room there, I suppose he started putting them up in that black plastic gully below the windshield. She was hearing them roll around up there. It was an absolute nightmare to clean out. I filled a brown grocery bag a little more than half way with nuts. There's really no good excuse why I haven't maintained this truck. In my own defense I will say that I did the first oil change - and(I assumed) the dealer did them all up until now. Like I said, its really my wife's truck and she wanted to have the dealer do the servicing while it was still under warrenty, etc. I've been told that the truck has been in a few times for service, but that doesn't explain why the oil filter I put on there 5 years ago was still on there. I used a Fram DG, and there it was when I changed the oil. It was even kind of rusting a little on the side. Frankly I'm pissed that I didn't do all the work myself. I have reasons for not dealing with it until now. No good ones though. So when I went to replace the air filter yesterday - low and behold, there were nuts in there. Lots of them. I'd say it was at least a few hands full worth of nuts in there. Also there was some insulation in there. I guess that was the bedroom or something. The insulation had essentially blocked half of the filter - caked on a couple of inches from the middle all the way to the side. The other half was just kind of dirty. Like 5 years dirty. Anyway, there was no blow-by in the top of the air cleaner assembly. Thanks for the suggestion though. It has to be something that can cause oil engestion on just one cylinder. All the rest of the plugs are dry and burning well. Its just this one thats messed up. I'm kind of hoping that its just a valve stem seal. I'll probably know by tomorrow, its supposed to be coming in. Maybe I'm getting ahead of myself here. I'm kind of assuming that I can remove the valve springs while the heads are still on the block. I have an air compressor, and I know I can get a spark plug adapter for it at Napa. I've never had the cam covers off, so I don't know what kind of clearance issues there are with removing the valve springs. I have a valve spring compressor just like this - http://jcsonlinetoolshed.com/product.php/4009/0/ Will this work? Or is there another one that will?
me again Dodge Dakota JOIN HERE 12/22/2004 06:56:05	RE: Clank, ticking, and misfire - 4.7L IP: Logged Message: no belly pan gasket on the 4.7(3.9,5.2,5.9). Auto-RX only available on line; http://www.auto-rx.com/pages/applications2.htm I still would use a synthetic if you desire. But AFTER it`s clean.(they say to use dino after cleaning and using a 3 ounze maitenace dose, the esters in synthetic oil "compete" with Auto-Rx,long story) Just make sure to use Dino oil during the cleaning and rinsing phases for the above mentioned reason.
MetalJim Dodge Dakota JOIN HERE 12/22/2004 14:19:34	RE: Clank, ticking, and misfire - 4.7L IP: Logged Message: Cool. Thanks for the info. I kind of figured that it was only availiable online after my local Napa store didn't have it. Its my top priority after getting the problems fixed. I went there to get a leakdown tester today. I'm gonna use it to hold the valves in place while I replace the stem seal. I did a complete compression check last night. This time I remembered to hold the throttle open(doh!). It does look like cyl 6 is a little worse than the others. I hope its not the bottom end. 140, 145, 150, 150, 140, (#6)125, 135, 135. The leakdown tester should be able to show where the damage is, but I'm hoping it'll also hold the valve in place with the spring removed. I've never had to do spring work with the head on. Please someone tell me that I'm on the right track with my plans. I'd hate to loose a valve into the motor.
Figols Dodge Dakota JOIN HERE 12/22/2004 15:11:39	RE: Clank, ticking, and misfire - 4.7L IP: Logged Message: An old trick to help prevent a lost valve in the combustion chamber is to get a length of clothes line and shove it into the sparkplug hole of the cylinder you are working on while it is at TDC. Ofcourse This only works if you don't have the air adapter. Just leave enough sticking out of the hole to have something to grab on to to pull it out. Now if you use the adapter then just make sure your piston is at TDC. This way it won't fall far if the air escapes the cylinder. I used Auto-rx on my 4.7L and it seemed to quiet down the lash adjuster. I'm still going to replace them, but for now it's good enough to let it ride for a few more miles. Even with exceptional maintenance these motors are known to sludge up. I can only imagine how much sludge has to be in yours.
MetalJim Dodge Dakota JOIN HERE 12/22/2004 17:22:34	RE: Clank, ticking, and misfire - 4.7L IP: Logged Message: Ahh thats right. I forgot about that one. I may have to fall back on that one if the valve is messed up or if the cylinder just wont support any leak down pressure. I'd really like to try the air first. Thanks for the tip. My parts came in today so I should be good to go for tonight.
MetalJim Dodge Dakota JOIN HERE 12/23/2004 01:34:12	RE: Clank, ticking, and misfire - 4.7L IP: Logged Message: After all that I didn't even have to touch the valve springs. Turns out it was just the exhaust side rocker fell off, or flew off, on cylinder 6. The rocker itself was in good shape. I don't think it flew off too hard, but it did leave a little crack in the cover. I guess I didn't see it before cause I wasn't looking for it and its hard to see and noone suggested it. Its all good though. I replace that lifter, poped the old rocker back in, then sanded and patched the cover crack with some JB weld. I also ran a leakdown test to see what kind of damage I did to the lower end. Apparantly not that much at all - there was only 6% pressure loss at 35psig and about a 4% loss at 50psig. All of it past the rings, and on a dead cold motor. I don't like my new leakdown tester. I never had one before and I was kind of in a bind just to get one. Its one of those dual gauge ones where one gauge shows the pressure and one shows percentage leakage. The first thing I don't like is that the percentage seems to be wrong. The percentage gauge is actually just a 35psig gauge with a percentage face, but repeated tests show inconsistant results and all of the results are much higher percentage then they should be. For example first thing you do is regulate the tester to 35psig so the percentage gauge reads 0% then you plug it in - and every time I do this the pressure gauge goes down to 33psig but the percentage guage will read between 10-20% loss. No way in hell 2psig is 20% of 35psig. So that gauge seems to be bad. The other thing I don't like about it is that the regulator only allows you to crank it up to 50psig. That just kind of sucks, but it also doesn't make much sense because the pressure gauge reads up to 100psig - whats up with that. Its like a defective leakdown tester for idiots or something. I'll probably modify it a bit before too long cause I wanna use it on my car. Should have the truck running in a bit. I gotta plug my laptop in there to clear the misfire code again, but really at this point I'm just waiting for the JB Weld to dry.
MetalJim Dodge Dakota JOIN HERE 12/23/2004 03:56:13	RE: Clank, ticking, and misfire - 4.7L IP: Logged Message: Just got back from the test drive. It ran good as new. No more clanking, ticking, or misfire codes.
ho ho ho Dodge Dakota JOIN HERE 12/23/2004 19:33:15	RE: Clank, ticking, and misfire - 4.7L IP: Logged Message: the plug is getting oil on it because it is not firing. The areas to be looking at since you already have done a bit of work is the PLUG WIRE to that particular cylinder, everything else is probably OK. A bad plug wire is the most likely cause, besides a bad cap/rotor or a badly worn plug, to cause a misfire in any one particular cylinder. It seams as though you are on a fishing expidition looking for a mechanical problem when it is electrical. the numbers you list for the compression check are within the normal range and from the highest the percentage that the lowest one is low is within 15 percent, and that is a little out of range but near enough to create a misfire.
ho ho ho Dodge Dakota JOIN HERE 12/23/2004 19:34:57	RE: Clank, ticking, and misfire - 4.7L IP: Logged Message: range but near enough to create a misfire should read: range but NOT far enough out of range to create a misfire. (brain fart on my part)
GraphiteDak GenIII 12/23/2004 21:34:29	RE: Clank, ticking, and misfire - 4.7L IP: Logged Message: Ho ho ho, he already found the problem. Rocker fell off. After combustion the gases were not being pumped out. That WOULD cause all sorts of noise and a miss. Weird how it had compression but when you think about it air DOES get in just didn't pump out because the exhaust valve didn't open so you got TWO compression strokes almost... Glad it was something simple. Shows that maybe the little 287 can be tough even if someone neglects it!
hey ho Dodge Dakota JOIN HERE 12/23/2004 22:17:36	RE: Clank, ticking, and misfire - 4.7L IP: Logged Message: he has coil over ignition! no wires,cap, rotor.
MetalJim Dodge Dakota JOIN HERE 12/24/2004 04:15:46	RE: Clank, ticking, and misfire - 4.7L IP: Logged Message: Yep its a sturdy little 8. They could make the valve covers a little less dainty. But yeah, its not like I've taken it easy on the thing. Generally speaking I am an agressive driver. I like to race on the street when I'm at the light. I race my car at the track. I'm the guy who's either stopped, cruising, or at wide open throttle. There's no law against being quick. A 5 speed is a little rare for a Quad Cab, but automatics just waste power that could be used to get you down the road quicker. Ok so why didn't I get the 318? 1)I like to rev and 2)pushrods are ancient technology. Simple as that. Pushrods should just take the path of the spoked wheel, carburator, points, distributors, etc - and fade away. The 318 motor itself is around 50 years old at this point. Time to retire it already and just move along. Its official - after taking with the wife I was definately the last one to change the oil, about 4 years/50k miles ago. Good thing I used synthetic when I did it. Oh, and I deduced after the fact that it wasn't oil at all - it was fuel soaked exhaust. It was black, wet, and it looked alot like oil to me. Learn something new everyday I guess. Without an exhaust rocker the fuel(burned and unburnt) just had no place to go cept past the rings or get recompressed. And from the compresson tests it appears most of it just got recompressed. That also means that ticking noise I heard could have been the piston hitting the wall. At least thats the explanation that makes the most sense to me because the sound wasn't coming from directly under the valve cover.
jdeme177 Dodge Dakota JOIN HERE 7/06/2005 00:25:38	RE: Clank, ticking, and misfire - 4.7L IP: Logged Message: I am getting a misfire in the 7th cylinder and my compression is between 40 and 50. I did a wet test and it is a problem in the valves so I am pulling the heads and gunna send them out. I was wondering if anyone knows anything about theses problems and if it is something that happens regularly. The truck has 72,000 miles. Any help would be great! Thanks!
corjunk Dodge Dakota JOIN HERE 7/06/2005 08:02:58	RE: Clank, ticking, and misfire - 4.7L IP: Logged Message: broken valve spring or a lash adjuster that fell out of place.
jayb Dodge Dakota JOIN HERE 7/06/2005 19:36:32	RE: Clank, ticking, and misfire - 4.7L IP: Logged Message: you went without a oil change for 4 years?! oh my god.
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