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actually
Dodge Dakota
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2/09/2004
17:40:37
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 Subject: RE: R/T vs. GT
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hey haaaa as long as you are comparing Dodges to Fords are you aware that the new GT40 the only car Ford makes that is "comparable to a Viper" will beat a Viper in a drag race. seen the figures in car mags and the GT is JUST a little bit quicker.
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False
Dodge Dakota
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2/09/2004
18:01:41
| RE: R/T vs. GT
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Umm. From what I've read in Motor Trend the Ford GT had the Viper in the early speeds of the race, but the Viper edged ahead in the ladder gears and beat it by two tenths of a second in the quarter mile.
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NOT
Dodge Dakota
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2/09/2004
18:37:09
| RE: R/T vs. GT
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Afraid your wrong. Just saw the test data on TV this weekend. They were dissapointed in the performance of the GT mainly because it cost way more than a Viper and still couldn't out run it. What a shame. All those years of developement Ford did. It all started with the first GT over 25 years ago. Look how much time Ford has spent on this car. Dodge did the Viper from the ground up in just over a year. Yet, it's still the KING!
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00R/T CC
Dodge Dakota
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2/10/2004
17:26:13
|  RE: R/T vs. GT
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Anybody see 'Rides' on TLC? the one with the new 'cobra'? and the pathetic attempt by Ford to associate the car with C.Shelby? HOw sad was that?! The guy had nothing to do with the car, the engineering, the design, the paint...NOTHING. But Ford has to try and cash in on his name. One word: sad.
Watch for supercharged Hemi ram offered by Dodge in '05. See last issue of Mopar Muscle for details. If you don't think that thing will kick the lightnings' ass all over the place, you may need professional help.
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00R/T CC
Dodge Dakota
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2/10/2004
17:32:33
| RE: R/T vs. GT
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...Make that the Feb.'04 issue of Mopar Action, not Muscle.
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IntenseDak39
*GenIII*
2/10/2004
20:39:19
| RE: R/T vs. GT
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i dont think comparing a $150,000 GT40 to a $75,000 Viper is a real comparison...
for a $150,000 you can go buy a twin turbo henessay viper that has plenty more go power.. and since henessay owns a dealership and does all the work, its still a production car.
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bowtie
Dodge Dakota
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2/11/2004
10:04:13
| RE: R/T vs. GT
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i hope we can put aside our differences an bash the lame-ass ford boys.so what if the 03 cobra can run faster with a KB blower on it with $5000 dollars in it,put 5grand in a ls1,lower comp. build the bottom-end an stick a sick-ass 15lb.vortech on it.screw the overpriced GT all they did was rip-off a 40yr.old design.ford can't come up with a new style car because their tryin' to figure out how to stick blowers on all their slow cars.ford was getttin'its ass kicked by the f-body from 93to02.its pretty sad when the cheapest ls1 f-body can run with or outrun the highest-end N/A DOHC 4.6.i'm not gonna sit here an say that the SS or WS6 would be faster than a stang'if it had 8lbs.of boost,but if the cobra didn't have it,i couldn't touch a LS1. SVT SUX
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IntenseDak39
*GenIII*
2/11/2004
10:50:54
| RE: R/T vs. GT
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man... LS1's dont need much at all.
When i was at the dyno, there was one there with a Procharger dual intercooler kit... exhaust, intake, cam swap.... 584 rwhp would like to see a mudstain do that. My mom's has dynoed 340 with some minor boltons... and her's is an automatic.
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JC
Dodge Dakota
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2/11/2004
16:08:15
| RE: R/T vs. GT
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Some of the responses I am reading are literally some of the dumbest I have ever read in regards to Ford bashing. Bash Ford all ya want but at least keep some logical facts as your basis. Ford isn't my brand of choice but give some credit.
The biggest joke I have read has to be the comments about using a blower to make fast cars. It is six of one and half dozen of another. Ford uses a smaller displacement engine with forced injection while GM uses a larger engine that is n/a. If FMC wanted to make a n/a powerful engine, I think they could. They showed they could with the Cobra R that recently came out that was pushing close to 400 big ones.
I also love reading how the misinformed think it is so easy to "slap a blower" on the LS1 and wham bam: Cobra Killer! Alot has to be taken into consideration and it isn't cheap. Give some credit to the Cobra. It pounds the piss out of the LS1 Fbodies. Mod the two cars and the advantage swings even further in the way of the Ford. It is sad to say but it is true.
As far as the Camaro/TA vs Mustang during 93-2002, it wasn't all Ford or all GM. Even in 93, the Cobra was a formidable foe for the Fbody twins. The 96-97 Cobra was more than able to beat up on the LT1 Fbodies as well. Granted, in 98, the LS1 really changed performance but as the years passed by, the Cobra was right there. It is all the same. No one wants to admit the other car can beat it but it happens.
Just out of curiousity, why does one person seem to think that a Mustang can not dyno 584rwhp? Is there some factual evidence to back up your thinking?
Forgive me for the rant but some people are so blinded with brand loyalty or disloyalty. Just because you dislike Ford doesn't mean they make crap always. Face it, the Mustang is still here and where is the Fbody? Do you want to tell me all the people who purchased mustangs and still buy them are buying crap? I am no fan of ford but please, cut some of the nonsense kids.
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IntenseDak39
*GenIII*
2/11/2004
19:08:35
| RE: R/T vs. GT
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well... A Cobra can make 584... but you can't "add a blower to do that".. .because it already has one. That's its limitation. When the LS1 makes almost as much power as the cobra, but is naturally aspirated, it has a lot more potential.
or we can compare the LS6 that makes more power than the Cobra... without a blower.
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bowtie
Dodge Dakota
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2/11/2004
21:32:51
| RE: R/T vs. GT
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a 96'or97'cobra can beat up on a z28 or transam?maybe,but have you heard of the lt1 SS's or ram airs they were rated at 305hp an alot more torque.you can talk about cobras all you want,but what about the GT's the 2-valve 4.6's are slow STILL,after 8yrs.of production it still produces less hp than a 93 lt1.don't feed me any of that hp/liter honda-boy stuff,it ain't my fault ford puts small engines in them.
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bowtie
Dodge Dakota
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2/11/2004
21:37:19
| RE: R/T vs. GT
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BTW the cobra R wasn't completely a ford vehicle it had alot of aftermarket parts in it headers,exhaust,ect.
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IntenseDak39
*GenIII*
2/11/2004
21:46:58
| RE: R/T vs. GT
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from about 94 and up.. mustangs couldnt run against the like year F-body... stock to stock.
and those LS1's made between 305-340 in f- bodies and 350 in vette's.
even the LT1 was rated between 275-285 in F-bodies... the mustangs were no where near that... even the OVERATED Cobras back in the day... my friend has a 98 Cobra. Thing is suppose to be 305 Hp... my brother's 96 Formula LT1 285 Hp beats the crap out of it everyday.
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Demon Dakota
DakotaEnthusiast
2/12/2004
11:29:13
| RE: R/T vs. GT
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You guys are forgetting that the '03-'04 SVT Cobra actually puts out 420-425 crank HP at a very modest boost level. Just by swapping to the KB S/C'er unit, you gain 50-60 HP (same boost level as stock). Change pulleys, exhaust, and get the ECU programmed, and you're well over 600 crank HP right there. The current Ford Mustang platform isn't the greatest thing, but it's good enough, and can be purchased for the same amount as the previously built SS Camaro...
It's just different philosophies in performance. There truly isn't one vehicle greater than the other. They all have tradeoffs...
True Dual exhaust and removed third cat
HO Cams & HO Intake
FASTMAN 70mm TB
Autolite 3923 Plugs
TPS @ .76 VDC
IAT Adjuster Mod
Custom tranny VB Mod
Demon long tube headers
Ported/polished heads w/ 1.92" Intake/1.60" Exhaust Valves
One dead stock LSD unit (POS...)
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JC
Dodge Dakota
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2/12/2004
11:35:08
| RE: R/T vs. GT
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Excuse me for laughing but I truely feel as if I am talking to a bunch of children. Many of your arguements are not well thought out.
A. The LS1 now has "almost as much" power as the Cobra? I guess having roughly 50 less rwhp is almost as much as the next. 50rwhp is peanuts apparently on this board.
B. Accept the facts, the LS1 is not meant to handle boost like the Cobra. In the way it sits as it left the factory, it can not handle anywhere near what the Cobra takes. Put a blower on the LS1 with some hig boost and see how long it last.
C. The LS6 makes more power on paper. GM isn't the only manufacturer that can under rate their engines. It is well known that the s/c 4.6's rating of 390hp is rather conservative to say the least. Dyno runs have more than supported this statement.
D. Any knowing car freak knows that the SS and Ram Air's were nearly the same car as the Z28 and TA (as far as performance goes). You'd swear the change in performance is night and day. Wrong! You might not like the facts but the Cobra of the day was more than able to beat up on its foe.
E. Hmmm, now we can't talk about the Cobra R because it had an aftermarket exhaust and such? You sound like a typical uninformed person who has nothing else to base your arguement on. If your going to use that lame ass arguement, you better not talk about the SS or WS6 TA.
F. Can I see some proof that the Cobras were overrated back in the day? I mean substantial proof and not the words of an anti-ford person. The Cobra had one bad year but the problem was corrected relatively quick.
G. Calling the GT slow is a matter of opinion. Your right if high 13 and low 14 second ets are slow. God knows that is such a common time that so many cars can run. Is it fast by some standards? NO but it isn't slow either.
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IntenseDak39
*GenIII*
2/12/2004
19:23:38
| RE: R/T vs. GT
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A. 50 hp is pretty close in my book when one is supercharged, has four cams and factory dual exhaust... whats even closer, is their e.t.s
B. I didnt realize you designed the LS1.. please let me know of these problems LS1's are having with boost... i am sure its nothing like fords problems with some of thier engine failures.
C. Have you seen a Z06 get dynoed? (the 405 hp one.. not the 385)... i guess you helped design that motor to, and have those papers
D. Z28/TA = 305-315 hp depending on year (LS1)
SS/RA = 320-325 hp depending on year (LS1)
Firehawk = 340-345 hp (you probably forgot about that one)
E. SS/RA didnt have aftermarket exhaust, while some dealers installed some.
F. why did all the 99 cobras get recalled??? BECAUSE THEY DIDNT MAKE THE POWER THEY SAID THEY DID (i didnt mean the '03 cobra)
G. I dont think I have said they are slow... but if so... thats cool... because they are ;-)
"from about 94 and up.. mustangs couldnt run against the like year F-body... stock to stock. "
now in my little comparison here... if you were smart enough, you would realize i was not including the '03 Cobra because there wasnt an '03 F-body.
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HA
Dodge Dakota
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2/13/2004
09:30:44
| RE: R/T vs. GT
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BURNED!
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JC
Dodge Dakota
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2/13/2004
18:18:32
| RE: R/T vs. GT
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Son
Please, look in the water before you jump in head first. Your arguements are filled with nothing that holds relevance. Grab a pencil because class is now in sesssion.
Regardless if the engine is n/a or not, 50hp is a big gap when it all boils down. If you pull your head out of your ass for one minute, you'll learn something here. What matters is how much rwhp and rwtrq a vehicle has. The gap between a s/c Cobra and Ls1 is very significant. Don't give me your bs teenage ricer excuses. If you want to play that, we'l just say the LS1 has a higher displacement that the Cobra. Fair enough?
Level with me, do you actually know anything about engines or do you just try and pretend you do? If you did, you would know that large amounts of boost coupled with high compression ratios equals makes for a loud bang. I am not saying it will happen instantly but eventually it will. Face it, the 4.6L in the cobra is made to withstand one hell of an amount of boost unlike the LS1. Seriously, if you can not fathom the notion that high compression + high boost = kaboom, you just need to zip the lip or do some more reading in a magazine or where ever you get your ideas from.
Did I design the LS1 or Ls6? I think we know the answer to that one nor have I claimed to have. All you need to do is check dyno graphs to see how the s/c Cobra and LS1/LS6 compare. You might not like what you see.
It is no secret that companies have problems. This includes Ford but certainly includes GM as well. Piston slap is a big problem with many of the almighty LS1's out there today. Please tell me you just conveniently over looked that when trying to make ford look bad?
The 99 Cobra did have problems. They were fixed as soon as the problem was realized. I'd agree with you if there never was a recall to rectify the situation.
I could go on and on and tell you where your incorrect but you will believe what you choose to. IF your happy with think the SS/WS6 runs circles around your average Z28, be my guest. If you think 50hp is minor, your more silly than I already think. If you feel the Cobra (03) is barely ahead of the last LS1, please be my guest.
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Oh no
Dodge Dakota
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2/13/2004
18:29:53
| RE: R/T vs. GT
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Now you went and did it!
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IntenseDak39
*GenIII*
2/14/2004
01:57:28
| RE: R/T vs. GT
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sorry JC... the only dyno i have seen for a s/c LS1 was 584 wrhp.
Do you know the compression ratio of a LS1? do you know the compression ratio of a Mustang GT? '03 Cobra?
LS1's dont have a high compression at all.. You maybe mistaken for the LT1's high compression and its reverse flow cylinder heads to accomedate that. The s/c kits for LS1's dont need to use that much boost... and they are even warranted products that use premium fuel. And... i believe the first batch of s/c cobra's got killed and recalled because of engine failures due to the s/c... please correct me if i am wrong.
I dont have a ricer, never owned one, i am not a teenager and do know a little bit about motors. I have built everything from small block chevies, to turbo 2.2's to turbo 3.9s to, now, big block mopars.
I havent criticed any flaws that Ford has, i know they all have em. I have never heard of LS1's with cylinder slap but i have heard that the truck series 5.3 does (which is very closely related but has a much smaller combustion chamber and a lot more differences). Honestly, i just find it amusing that the only way Ford has figured out how to get ahead of the competition, is to add a s/c to their vehicles. I mean, the new LS1's are putting out 350 hp while the GT is 90 hp less than that. Ford did a lot more than add a s/c to make up for the displacement of the LS1... four cams, 32 valves, dual exhuast... that alone should get more than 260 hp if they actually tried. Hell... honda is getting 260 hp out of 4 cams, 24 valves and 3.0 liters.
As far as i can see now, the only new competition on the domestic ring for the mustang is the Corvette and the Viper.. because no one else makes any pony cars anymore.
here's one last comparo.. since only statements that we know hold true (not a friend of a friend of a friend), lets compare two boosted motors.
2.4 liter 225hp SRT-4 13.9 1/4
4.6 liter 390hp Corbra 13.4 1/4
now considering one weighs about 600 lbs less than the other... that wouldnt make up for 165 hp difference. In my eyes, hp aint everything.. and 50 hp aint all it is if you dont know what to do with it. Go back awhile and read one of your Fast Ford mags (because i am sure you collect them).. they did a nice comparison of the '02 SS and '03 Cobra. Please write up the results of their findings and let me know if that 65 hp difference was enough to make big claims.
and i am not your son
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