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sandman
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5/20/2001
21:46:21
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 Subject: Synthetic Oil Difference!!!
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I am a synthetic nut!! My wife accidently picked up a case of semi- synthetic blend and we misplaced the reciept. I figured I would use it for my first oil change. I put it in and ran it for 1400 miles. Now that I have 2000 miles on my Dak QC I am switching back to full sythetic. I put sythetic 10w30 in my engine and the same M204 filter that I run. The oil pressure is almost at the max mark for the normal range. With the 10w30 semi-synthetic blend and a M204 filter oil pressure was in the middle in the normal range at idle. My oil pressure almost doubled just by putting synthetic oil in. I thought that I would share this with the group.
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Patrick ODay
Gen III
5/21/2001
00:03:49
| RE: Synthetic Oil Difference!!!
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If you have the 4.7L you need to use the 5w-30.
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Ralphp
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5/21/2001
02:49:27
|  RE: Synthetic Oil Difference!!!
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According to my owner's manual, 5w-30 is recommended for best fuel efficiency. The 10w-30 is also listed as an acceptable weight except in very cold climates.
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Gary
Unregistered
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5/21/2001
04:25:47
| RE: Synthetic Oil Difference!!!
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Just some gee-whiz about synthetics from my own experience. I've used Mobil 1 in my '98 Neon R/T since day one. After 51,000 (very hard) miles I decided for the heck of it to have the oil lab tested to see what condition the engine was in. The lab reported that it was the best Chrysler 2.0L engine that they had ever seen and it had zero wear indicated. I also use the Mobil 1 oil filter in that car. Makes me breathe easier when zinging it up to 7,000+ rpm.
I plan on using it in my '01 Dakota, when I get it.
Gary
(Korea)
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Wayne
Unregistered
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5/21/2001
09:48:19
| RE: Synthetic Oil Difference!!!
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That is the first time I have heard of oil pressure going up when switching to synthetic. It usually drops a little. "They" say the pressure is lower because synthetic is thinner and pumps easier (whoever "they" is).
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jack Hull
Unregistered
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5/22/2001
02:30:45
| RE: Synthetic Oil Difference!!!
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the pressure went up because the factory oil is 5w-30, you put in 10w-30 which is thicker and hence raises oil pressure..nothing to do with whether synthetic or "dino" oil.......btw....higher oil pressure is not always better........thicker oil robs engine power and fuel economy that's why 5w-30 is "energy conserving II" and 10w-30 is just "energy conserving" and 10w-40 has no energy conserving rating.........unless you live in a very hot climate or have a high mileage vehicle with a lot of engine wear and low oil pressure at idle use the 5w-30.
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jack Hull
Unregistered
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5/22/2001
02:31:01
| RE: Synthetic Oil Difference!!!
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the pressure went up because the factory oil is 5w-30, you put in 10w-30 which is thicker and hence raises oil pressure..nothing to do with whether synthetic or "dino" oil.......btw....higher oil pressure is not always better........thicker oil robs engine power and fuel economy that's why 5w-30 is "energy conserving II" and 10w-30 is just "energy conserving" and 10w-40 has no energy conserving rating.........unless you live in a very hot climate or have a high mileage vehicle with a lot of engine wear and low oil pressure at idle use the 5w-30.
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jack Hull
Unregistered
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5/22/2001
02:34:09
| RE: Synthetic Oil Difference!!!
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the pressure went up because the factory oil is 5w-30, you put in 10w-30 which is thicker and hence raises oil pressure..nothing to do with whether synthetic or "dino" oil.......btw....higher oil pressure is not always better........thicker oil robs engine power and fuel economy that's why 5w-30 is "energy conserving II" and 10w-30 is just "energy conserving" and 10w-40 has no energy conserving rating.........unless you live in a very hot climate or have a high mileage vehicle with a lot of engine wear and low oil pressure at idle use the 5w-30.
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jack Hull
Unregistered
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5/22/2001
02:34:49
| RE: Synthetic Oil Difference!!!
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the pressure went up because the factory oil is 5w-30, you put in 10w-30 which is thicker and hence raises oil pressure..nothing to do with whether synthetic or "dino" oil.......btw....higher oil pressure is not always better........thicker oil robs engine power and fuel economy that's why 5w-30 is "energy conserving II" and 10w-30 is just "energy conserving" and 10w-40 has no energy conserving rating.........unless you live in a very hot climate or have a high mileage vehicle with a lot of engine wear and low oil pressure at idle use the 5w-30.
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Doug
Unregistered
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5/22/2001
11:16:27
| RE: Synthetic Oil Difference!!!
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I have seen oil pressure go up about 10 psig using Synergyn 10W30, probably due to adhesion. As far as a change in oil pressure using standard types of oil 5W30 or 10W30 there should be no change in pressure once the oil is at operating temperature, because the oils have the same weight. The first number is the base weight or viscousity for flow in a cold engine.
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Kris239
Gen II
5/22/2001
16:21:22
|  RE: Synthetic Oil Difference!!!
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I heard that once you synthetic, you can't go back to conventional oil, is this true. I also heard that synthetic actually cause higher milage motors to leak, or when a motor already has a leak it will cause it to get worse. And that conventional just clogs it up more. Just trying to get things cleared up before I change mine.
Kris Harnack
1994 Dodge Dakota SLT
3.9L V6 / RC / SB / Auto
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Blckdak
Unregistered
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5/22/2001
17:10:27
| RE: Synthetic Oil Difference!!!
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I currently use Amsoil Series 2000 0W-30. This will be my 3rd oil change using this and I've found the engine to run smoother a tad cooler and everytime the oil has been cleaner than what i used to use in my previous Dakota (conventional oil). I also use a bigger filter.
2000 CC 4x4 4.7L Z-tube Magna-flow exhaust
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Sandman
Unregistered
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5/22/2001
21:15:15
| RE: Synthetic Oil Difference!!!
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My oil pressures where taken with cold engine with cold oil. Once the oil comes up to operateing temp it is lower then the dino juice at idle. I was pointing out this observation as an oddity not a norm. This is my third oil change at 2020 miles not my second and the previous oil pressure reading where taken with 10w30 as well. You could not pay me to use 5w30. If sewing machine oil I mean 5w30 was so great we would have been useing it for about in automobiles since day one and would have stayed with it. It would be used in tractor trailer, tractors, All race cars, aircraft, manual transmissions, gear boxs, hypoids, tanks, lawn mowers, motor cycles..... GM used to recommend 5w20 for a very long time and their engine life was horrable. If you think 5w30 is so good run it for 5000 miles then do an oil test. Then run the same brand of oil in a 10w30 for 5000 miles and have it tested. If you treat the oils identicaly in your driveing styles I think you will see that the 10w30 comes out on top. Hey they make a 0w30 I wounder if that would be even better than 5w30. I have seen what happens to cars that frequently drive at high speeds for prolonged time periods with 5w30. It was called black death in Europe.
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Doug
Dodge Dakota
5/23/2001
02:22:29
| RE: Synthetic Oil Difference!!!
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FYI, turbine engine oil is your sewing machine oil pours like water used by anyone with a jet or turbo prop engine. Takes in a lot ao aircars
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Gary
Dodge Dakota
5/23/2001
07:43:27
|  RE: Synthetic Oil Difference!!!
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Ditto on the jet oil comment. I've been working on jet aircraft for 17+ years and the Mobil oil we use pours like water. Viscosity really doesn't have much to do with how well a oil holds up to high temps. Don't forget that the lower number means that it will act like that grade when it is cold. It's the higher number that is important.I would use 5W-30 synthetic without hesistation. It flows easier when cold, but still has the "30" weight when hot.
With the GM engine probs...well it's GM.
You can switch back and forth between synthetic and conventional. A lot of the leakage problems are because the high mileage engine already had a leak. The synthetic, being "slipperier" just flows easier past those leakage spots easier.
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sandman
Dodge Dakota
5/23/2001
18:46:13
| RE: Synthetic Oil Difference!!!
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I was refereing to aircraft that still use internal combustion engines with pistons. I would not compare a turbine to an internal combustion recipricateing piston engine. The GE engines that the 747 use have a secsesful start rate of 1999 out of 2000 attempts to start and will accumulate more hours of operation in the life cyle between majors overhals then all of this groups trucks combined more than likely. The stress in an jet turbine are totaly different. Turbine oil is also a synthetic polyester base stock!
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sandman
Dodge Dakota
5/23/2001
18:50:25
| RE: Synthetic Oil Difference!!!
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You can contact all of the major oil companys and they will be happy to discuss their products with you. I been told by several petrolem companies that 5w30 is no where as stable as 10w30 and 20w50 petroleum base stock.
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andrew
Dodge Dakota
5/23/2001
20:46:23
| RE: Synthetic Oil Difference!!!
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I am currently running Valvoline 15w40 All Fleet in my 93 5.2 w/almost 104,000 miles on it. I switched from 10w30 to the 15w40 for the warmer months. Am I hurting my motor? Bye the way, I know All Fleet is used for diesel motors but on the back it says its for all gasoline engines and its the only decent brand I could find in 15w40 thats not synthetic.
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Jim
Dodge Dakota
5/23/2001
22:55:11
|  RE: Synthetic Oil Difference!!!
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There was a study by consumer reports about synthetics vs conventional motor oils. They put synthetic and conventional oil in new taxi cabs in NYC and tested them for a year. Then they overhauled the engines and took measurements. There study did not show any decrease in wear with sythetic oil vs conventional oils. It was the same as conventional oil. Just an FYI. The issue is about a year old. I will try to find the article and post it.
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redbone
Dodge Dakota
5/24/2001
23:50:21
| RE: Synthetic Oil Difference!!!
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hey sandman they use the same sewing machine oil in internal cumbosyion engines also they are called turbo props as in c 130 herculies i know i rebuild those for uncle sam and they also put sewing machjine oil in manuel trrannies also and its called atf and 5w30 is a good oil its been used in my 95 neon since new the engine on the inside looks new i know this because i had to replace the faulty head gasket mother mopar put in a bunch of neons later all
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Wayne
Dodge Dakota
5/31/2001
11:49:41
| RE: Synthetic Oil Difference!!!
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I only wish I could post all the info I have gathered on this subject. In short, what you are driving and how you are driving it makes all the difference in the world as well as the conditions you drive in and how long between oil changes. If you are going to the store and driving low RPM in a low performance auto, 5W30 should work. I drive high performance V8s and drive them hard, even to the point of drag racing them some time. Based on tests, I am better pff using something in the 40 weight category for the most poser (helps the rings seal better than 30 weight). 50 weight will protect the bearings better under the heavier loadings but saps h.p. The number in front of the W should be as close to the number after the W as the difference is made up of additives that are not lubricants (15W40 is better than 10W40). Every case is different but turbine engine comparisons should be left out of this discussion as the bearing loadings and oil operating temperatures are completely different. If you don't believe that, just check out a discussion on motorcycle engine oils. The newer oils are bad for their engines.
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Doug
Dodge Dakota
5/31/2001
13:32:47
| RE: Synthetic Oil Difference!!!
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WAyne, if you go back through the posts the turbine engine oil was brought up because someone stated that if 5w30 was such agood oil that they would use it in all aircraft.you Are quite wright about the operating temps, turbines/jet engines operate in a invironment in excess of 300 deg. C, at the rear bearings and are cooled to around 90 deg. C depending on the engine.people should not make such broad general statments.
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Wayne
Dodge Dakota
5/31/2001
13:47:51
| RE: Synthetic Oil Difference!!!
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You are quite right , Doug.
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sandman
Dodge Dakota
5/31/2001
19:45:08
| RE: Synthetic Oil Difference!!!
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I latter clarifed that statement by stateing that I was compareing internal combustion engines with pistons not turbines. You will also note that almost every turbine uses synthetic oil. The internal operational enviroment of a turbine is toataly different then an internal combustion 4 cycle engine with pistons.Compareing a turbine to a 4 cycle engine makes about as much sense as compareing the price of tea in china to the price of a hooker in Ft. Riely Kanas. Many oil companies have Aero oils that have a viscosity as high as 90 weight for 4 cycle aircraft engines. The only oils that will routinely survive the high temps of a turbine are synthetic polyester base stocks. If you think your 5w30 dino oil is so good why don't you do an oil anylsis of you 5w30 after your regular hrs.,miliage or months of use have passed and post. I will happily spend ten dollars to have mine tested and I will try to scan my results into this forum.
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sandman
Dodge Dakota
5/31/2001
19:46:44
| RE: Synthetic Oil Difference!!!
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I latter clarifed that statement by stateing that I was compareing internal combustion engines with pistons not turbines. You will also note that almost every turbine uses synthetic oil. The internal operational enviroment of a turbine is toataly different then an internal combustion 4 cycle engine with pistons.Compareing a turbine to a 4 cycle engine makes about as much sense as compareing the price of tea in china to the price of a hooker in Ft. Riely Kanas. Many oil companies have Aero oils that have a viscosity as high as 90 weight for 4 cycle aircraft engines. The only oils that will routinely survive the high temps of a turbine are synthetic polyester base stocks. If you think your 5w30 dino oil is so good why don't you do an oil anylsis of you 5w30 after your regular hrs.,miliage or months of use have passed and post. I will happily spend ten dollars to have mine tested and I will try to scan my results into this forum.
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Wayne
Dodge Dakota
6/01/2001
07:12:04
| RE: Synthetic Oil Difference!!!
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Sandman - what made you compare something to the price of a hooker in Ft. Riley, Kansas? You been spending time on ninth street?
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sandman
Dodge Dakota
6/01/2001
16:17:39
| RE: Synthetic Oil Difference!!!
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Well Ft. Riely was one of the places that uncle sam needed my dad and I did not like too much. I had a hooker jump on the hood of our car while we stoped at a traffic light. She was screaming and yelling after my dad asked her to please leave us alone that we were not looking for sexual services. It was not as bad as Junction City Kanas it was just not my favorite place to be. It was also the only place in the entire world that I have ever had a hooker jump on the hood of my car.
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Wayne
Dodge Dakota
6/01/2001
16:24:19
| RE: Synthetic Oil Difference!!!
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Spent a year and a half there myself in '69 & '70. I was stationed on the hill. Went downtown about 2 P.M. on payday one time. Locked the doors before we got to ninth street. Had one of them walking along side of my car offering herself for $5. I guess that was the early bird price. haha
To stay on the subject I guess I should say that she probably had synthetic lube in her purse. Hahaha
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Patrick ODay
Gen III
6/01/2001
18:59:59
| RE: Synthetic Oil Difference!!!
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I did a year at Ft. Riley. Man oh man that place sucked!
Some times I have nightmares I am still in the Army and stationed there. I always wake up after that feeling depressed.
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sandman
Dodge Dakota
6/01/2001
22:51:11
| RE: Synthetic Oil Difference!!!
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My dad used to call Ft. Riely "The Arm Pit of the Army". I fill for ya. My dad was a lifer. After 20 years he had enough and actualy turned down an apointment to the Sargent Majors Academy. The military is not an easy life and does not pay well but I miss that life style so much. The disapline,profesionalism and comradere is what I miss. Most cicilians have no concept of what it means to be a team player and they are not hard chargers. Most people I meet in the civilian world give up to quick on everything. The company I work for has no idea how to deal with morale issues or how they affect the team. Even if you hate the military try to take these things with you when you transition back into the world. I have a brother inlaw in Korea right now. Private Wolschleger.
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Wayne
Dodge Dakota
6/02/2001
09:13:41
| RE: Synthetic Oil Difference!!!
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I have always said that you can't give me a million $ to go back in but you can't give me a million $ for the 2 years that I was in. They made me grow up and taught me a lot. Self disipline is just one of them.
FYI - There is a thread running on the synthetic oil thing on Mopar chat under the RAM section that has some interesting info.
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Scotty
Dodge Dakota
6/03/2001
08:38:13
| RE: Synthetic Oil Difference!!!
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Sandman,
your a few of the elite that changed to synthetic. i changed mines on the first oil change. on my sencond oil change i did the rest. trans and diffs. my truck runs smoother than ever....... do the rest and see the difference.
mahalo,
Scotty
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SubDakNY
Dodge Dakota
8/18/2001
22:58:41
| RE: Synthetic Oil Difference!!!
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As someone who knows a bunch about
industrial use aero-derivitave gas turbines
(read "jets"), I will let you know that the reason
that jet engines use synthetic oil is because it
holds up against and transfers heat better.
Additionally, the role of oil in a gas turbine is
the opposite of the role of oil in a piston
engine. A piston engine crank uses journal
bearings and requires oil to create a "wedge"
between the races to suspend the shaft .The
primary purpose of oil in an piston engine is to
lubricate the crank bearings and cylinders,
while a minor effect is carrying away heat. In a
Gas Turbine engine (aero-derivitave) they use
anti-friction bearings which require virtually no
lubrication. The main purpose of the oil is to
transfer heat away from the bearings to the oil
cooler. In even the largest aero-derivitive Gas
turbine, the metal to metal contact area is less
than in the smallest automobile engine. so
lubrication is a very minor concern.
Wade
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MAD DUC
Gen III
8/19/2001
00:15:12
| RE: Synthetic Oil Difference!!!
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I'll put an end to this discussion by replacing my 4.7 with one of these "turbines" and using synthetic oil.HA
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Bruce P
Dodge Dakota
8/19/2001
20:15:30
| Various obervations
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1) The taxicab test is based on just that ...TAXICABs. Since the life of a taxicab is to start the engine and it runs ALL DAY LONG...the benefits of Synth oil are VERY hard to observe under these conditions. DO YOU RUN YOUR ENGINE ALL DAY LONG?
2) 5W30 oil is actually a BETTER GRADE oil that 10W30 based on the fact that manufacturing a WIDER viscosity range is more challenging One cannot base their views on what oil is "better" for their engine based on what "USED" to be considered better. My 4.7LV8 HEMI calls for 5W30 and that is ALL it will ever get. (The book indicates that 10W30 is an "acceptable alternative")
3) The reason that "dyno oil" will have different oil pressures than Synth while cold is easy to see if one understands the very differing manufacturing processes that are used to produce these lubricants. ("dyno oil" comes from the ground and is "refined" into an approximation of a suitable IC lubricant.... synth is simply "designed" in a laboratory to be EXACTLY what is desired for an IC lubricant.)
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Kevin Dinwidd
Dodge Dakota
8/23/2001
20:53:09
| RE: Synthetic Oil Difference!!!
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Bruce,
I'll have to agree with you about that taxi cab test. It was in no way a good test. There were to many varables.
I also agree that I don't run my engine all day like those taxi cabs. However thats about all I agree with.
I disagree about your comment "5W30 oil is actually a BETTER GRADE oil that 10W30 based on the fact that manufacturing a WIDER viscosity range is more challenging" Manufacturing a wider viscosity range is more challenging but has nothing to do with a better grade oil. The longer a viscosity modifier has to span the greater the risk of viscosity breakdown, and a 5w-30 spans slightly more than a 10w-30.
I have a 2001 Dakota Quad cab with the 4.7. On page 191 in my Owners Manual it states that the perferred oil is a 5w-30. What they do not tell you is that they have to say that because of the CARB smog laws. This regulates auto mfgs to how much gas each car can burn. If it burns more than the average amount of fuel then the mfg has to pay $5.00 for every one tenth of a gallon under the average that their car gets. And that's for every car they produce. That's why they (prefer) the 5w-30 viscosity.
The same page also says that from 100 deg f down to use a 5w-30 and from 0 deg F up to use a 10w-30. I live in temps of 10 deg F to 115 deg F and that is in the 10w-30 range. If I were in the colder temps then I might think about using a 5w-30.
Let's not confuse the readers into thinking that a synthetic oil just appears or is a chemical. You stated that "("dyno oil" comes from the ground and is "refined" into an approximation of a suitable IC lubricant.... synth is simply "designed" in a laboratory to be EXACTLY what is desired for an IC lubricant.)" In fact both types of base oils petro and synthetic come from the ground. Synthetic is made up from light petro crude or from gasses. Both light crude and the gasses come from the ground. The petro oil is refined by using seperation and conversion processes and the synthetic is completly broken down and then built back up. One can obtain the same results as the other.
There are about 53,000 different chemical type make ups for just one kind of petroleum oil (parafinic) Some are good and some are not so good. Some rival the synthetic base oils. Then you have the additive packages some are good and some are not so good and others are propriatary and not used in all oils. There are additives that make a petro oil have better oxidation resistance than some synthetics. The company that I work for has both synthetic and petro oils. Let's look at the pour point of each the 5w-30 has a -40 pour point and the 10w-30 has a -33 pour point. The difference between the two oils is only 7 deg F. that shows not much difference on the low temp range. On the high temp (30wt) side 5w-30 has a vis of 10.4 cSt @ 100 deg C. and the 10w-30 has a vis of 12.0 cSt @ 100 deg C. The 5w-30 is on the low side of the 30 wt viscosity range and the 10w-30 is well into the meat of the 30 wt viscosity range. So you can see that the 5w-30 would serve the mfg for the better mileage type of a thinner oil. I for one will suffer the 1/10th of a mpg and get less wear by using a 10w-30.
All engine oils are designed to be run in an IC engine. The base oils are picked for the additive type and treat level and yourcomment about only synthetics are designed to be excatly what is desired in an IC engine is only 1/2 correct. In fact some times synthetics are torn apart in such a manner that they lose lubricity and oxidation resistance. This does not happen with petro oils because of the type of processes that they go through.
I'll not argue that synthetics are good oils, however there are some petro oils that are just as good if not better in some areas than synthetic oils. Synthetic oils do have a lower pour point than petro oils.
Sincerely,
Kevin
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Bruce P
Dodge Dakota
8/23/2001
21:18:42
| RE: Synthetic Oil Difference!!!
IP: Logged
Message:
Thanks for the info Kevin.
You seem to have been involved with the petroleum industry at some point just like myself. Ever hear of ARAMCO? I lived in Saudi Arabia for several years.
I agree with your points especially the fact that the long-chain polymers that are used to create some multi-vis oils have a tendancy to get "chopped" into bits resulting in a single-grade oil. This is ESPECIALLY true if there are GEARS involved. (such as in the 5sp manual tranny)
I guess that the bottom line is that there is no clear-cut answers about lubricants in general. Good thing we have the SAE testing for us and providing easy-to-inturpert grades.
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Robert
Dodge Dakota
8/23/2001
21:19:37
| RE: Synthetic Oil Difference!!!
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I too heard about the Consumer Reports test. The reason they chose NYC taxi-cabs is because a cab in NYC is probably run harder than anything we can dish out. If you think that driving in NYC -- virtually 24x7 -- is not hard on an engine, you are clueless.
The result of the test basicaly concluded that changing your oil on a regular basis is the most important. The brand of oil that you use is least significant. Unless you have a HIGHLY modified engine that is turning RPMs beyond factory red-line on a regular basis, the brand of oil that you use is insignificant (sp?)... as long as you change it.
I know everyone has their 'brand' -- synthetic or otherwise -- but tests have shown... I take that back, tests have PROVEN that it really does not matter what brand of oil you use. Just change it every 3k miles...
Also, I don't remember if it was this thread or not, but someone was excited about getting much hgiher oil pressure with a different brand/grade of oil. A word to the wise, high oil pressure is like high blood pressure -- bad. The oil pressures you see with the factory engine/oil... is fine. When modifications are made to increase the oil pressure, all you are doing is constantly overloading the bypass valve in the oil pump... which blows the oil back into the pan. The engine oil galleys can only flow so much oil. Once pressure is up high enough to flow oil... that is all that is needed. If oil is being pump back into the pan at an abnormal rate caused by too much pressure, areation (sp?) can occur. This is bad.
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Kevin Dinwidd
Dodge Dakota
8/23/2001
21:54:35
| RE: Synthetic Oil Difference!!!
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Message:
Dear Robert from Clueless,
Do you know what parameters were set for the test for the NY taxies?
Kevin
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Wayne
Dodge Dakota
8/24/2001
10:02:13
| RE: Synthetic Oil Difference!!!
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Message:
I have always been under the impression that running an engine for short distances and letting it cool before running it again was harder on the oil than the NYC scenario where the engine stays hot and running. If this is the case, the NYC Taxi test would mean nothing to me.
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Mar
Dodge Dakota
8/24/2001
10:25:43
| RE: Synthetic Oil Difference!!!
IP: Logged
Message:
They way they drive taxis in NEW YORK its like there on the highway anyways. Really though consumer reports is a load of crap. Did you see how they allways suck up to nissan and toyota and give the dakota a avrage score. I dont belive CR about anything. I have used castol GTX and SYNTEC and never had a problem and the engines are lasting longer then i wanted. So i am going to continue to use this oil.
TO kevin. You obvousily know your stuff so i have a question. I live in canada were the climate is all over the place. Last week it was 45 C about 112f or higher but in the winter it can go to about -30 c so i was wondering if you can run 10w 30 in summer and switch to 5w 30 for winter. Is it good to change oils like that.
THANK YOU
Marty.
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