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Robert
Dodge Dakota
8/24/2001
10:49:50
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 Subject: RE: Synthetic Oil Difference!!!
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Driving is NYC is NOT like driving on the highway... it is constant stop and go. It is like being in rush-hour for 24 hours a day. Cabbies ABUSE those cabs like nobody else...
As far as parameters... I believe they had cabs with different brands/grades of oil... and changed them at different intervals. I think the test went on for 100,000 miles. At the end they tore down the engines and evaluated them. They found almost no difference in wear between the different brands. Just different wear for logner intervals of oil changes.
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Kevin Dinwidd
Dodge Dakota
8/24/2001
11:56:04
| RE: Synthetic Oil Difference!!!
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Mar,
Sure you can run a 5w-30 for winter and a 10w-30 for summer. In fact in your area that is the best thing to do.
Kevin
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Kevin Dinwidd
Dodge Dakota
8/24/2001
12:36:04
| RE: Synthetic Oil Difference!!!
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Robert,
were the engines rebuilt or new? Who rebuilt them? were they just short blocks? did the rebuilder use all new parts or just 30 over on one cyl and 60 over on another? New cam and lifters or just new lifters on the old cam? We do not know what happened before the test was run. Did they mic everything on every engine before the test and then after the test or did they just look at the engines and say Yep they all look the same? Did they di it by miles as you say 100,000 mile test? They should have done it by hours not miles because of the idle time on some cabs. Did they do oil analysis? did they know how to read an analysis? Was the maint done the same on every car or did they use different filters air and oil on different cars? Did they use new air filters on every car or did they have a guy that just blew out the air filters with his air hose on some of the cars. they mucked up this test so bad that it has no meaning at all.
kevin
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Robert
Dodge Dakota
8/24/2001
14:04:12
| RE: Synthetic Oil Difference!!!
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Think you are trying to split hairs a little bit here. Just take the article for what it was worth and apply a little common sense to it.
Oh... but I am impressed that you know what a mic is... and what 30-over and 60-over mean. Your parents must be proud!
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Mar
Dodge Dakota
8/24/2001
16:58:04
| RE: Synthetic Oil Difference!!!
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Message:
As far as a mic goes im not sure if it would help you because a mic only measures objects i think you would need a dial test with magnetic base.
But kevin you are so right. one cab is not the same as two cabs its not a fair compairson. Its like testing tires one set on gravle one on pavement it doesnt work. How do you even know they filled up with the same gas.
These tests are pointless and do not prove anything. Fact is that a study on a lab bench proves more because you can see first hand whats going on.
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Wayne
Dodge Dakota
8/25/2001
10:39:44
| RE: Synthetic Oil Difference!!!
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I see no relevance of the taxi test to anything that we do. Robert is right when he says that Taxi duty is not like driving all highway miles. The other side of that is taxi duty is not like regular passenger car or truck duty either. Since I did not read the test I will not get worry myself with the procedures. The vehicles used is enough to make me realize that their results do not pertain to the choices that I must make for oil.....which is only part of what I must consider when looking at maintenance on my vehicle. The oil filter must be considered as well as the afore mentioned intervals. Don't forget about the impact the air filter has on it too. Then the condition of the particular motor must be considered. ETC.
Robert, your comments about some one being smart enough to use a mic wasn't too cool. This has been an intelligent conversation up to now. Lets not lower ourselves to insults when we feel we are out gunned.
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jt
Dodge Dakota
8/25/2001
11:32:21
| RE: Synthetic Oil Difference!!!
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Now thats calling the kettle black ain't it Wayne?
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Mike
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
2/05/2002
00:55:27
|  Oil
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I too have read the Consumers Report, the "taxi" issue and a previous issue with tests of oils, and I now use Penzoil 5/10W30 because it's cheap. I also use Quaker State 5/10W30 from time to time when it's on sale. Quaker State is also Penzoil. I have never had an engine problem.. never had a failure. I've used these oils in a Dodge Dart, a Camero, Firebird, Windstar, and now my Taurus wagon... never had a problem. I usually get rid of the vehicle in the 200,000 km region. I believe as does the Consumers Reports the interval is more important than the oil.
I can also tell you that if I use 10W30 all year my gas mileage drops 4 mpg (converted from metric) in the winter. The 5W30 in the winter means only a 1 mpg drop in fuel economy.
I'm one of those people who track EVERYTHING on my vehicles.
Mike...
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Bruce P
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
2/05/2002
19:36:45
| RE: Synthetic Oil Difference!!!
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(Mike) SURPRISE... As I have been saying all along, The tolerances within the 4.7L V8 hemi are DESIGNED for 5W30 oil. Anyone that thinks they are doing their engine a "favor" by second-guessing the reccommended oil viscosity is just plain WRONG.
It is good to see that you have actually MEASURED a difference. Perhaps that will help convince the infidels with their 10W30 oil ;-)
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Sandman
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
2/06/2002
19:53:02
|  RE: Synthetic Oil Difference!!!
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Bruce P, Where is the test Chrysler data to support this claim. Where in the owners manual or service manual does it say you will violate warranty or accelerate wear by useing a heavier oil. What is is difference in clearances between the OHV V6 and V8's offered for the Dakota and the OHC 4.7 V8? I think you should look up the word tolerance in a dictionary. Clearance is what is important when figureing oil flow through a bearing. Tolerance is a measure of how close to the specified clearance is aceptable. Tolerances are better today then 20 years ago but clearances are not significantly tighter at crank bearings. If the correct API catagory and classification of oil is used then manufacture can not disqualify warranty claim based on weight of oil. If the factory recommended ow10 or 0w0 would you still think that you engine would self destruct if you put a 5w30 in it? There is a good book by sikorski called "Drive It Forever" it is full of usefull automotive knoldge. Basicaly this enginer did alot of tests on vechiles trying to determine the best time to change fluids and filter and what weight oils worked best. He also compiled data from automotive manufactures durability tests. It is written in lay mans terms but it is a good book if you know little about cars and trucks.
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CW
GenIII
2/06/2002
20:12:40
| RE: Synthetic Oil Difference!!!
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Message:
I will have to go with Sandman on this one. They do say to use 5W30 but it isn't going to hurt the engine at all by useing 10W30. I use 10W30 Mobil one tri synthetic in the summer and 5w30 in the in the winter. I doubt the tolerances on the 4.7 are any tighter than the 5.2 or 5.9.
2001 RC 4.7 5sp 9.25" 3.92 LSD
Ported 68mm throttle body, IAT adjuster, 3" flowmaster cat back, TPS @ .76V, 4" cold air, Roadmaster active suspention, Removed Third cat. Electric fan Convertion, Awaiting HO cams.
Working on adjustable fuel pressure with return.
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BruceP
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
2/06/2002
21:12:41
| RE: Synthetic Oil Difference!!!
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(Sandman)YES!! THE 4.7L IS DIFFERENT FROM THE OL' 1960s BASED ENGINES.
OK... you caught me. I should have used the word "tolerances". I will accept my lashings by the a technical police ;-) I still maintain my college degrees in several technical fields
I NEVER said you would "violate" any warantee. I said that the RECOMMENDED oil is 5W30.
In any case... the TOLERANCES of the unique oil pump in the 4.7L are designed for 5W30 oil. Granted... at operating temperture, the "30" is all that matters.
HOWEVER... at cold temps.... the "5" makes a significant difference in the "pumpability" of the oil and its ability reach the locations to be lubricated.
It is a WELL KNOWN FACT that an IC engine experiences most of its wear during the warmup period. This is precisly when the "5" in the 5W30 is important.
If we could somhow keep our engines at operating temperture ALL OF THE TIME... there would be almost immeasurable wear on the critical surfaces.There would also be no need for multi-viscosity oil. We all know that a single-weight oil cannot be broken down like a multi-vis oil.
(you do realize that a multi-vis oil is created by taking a thinner oil and adding long-chain polymers to increase the viscosity... these polymers (plastics) get chopped into pieces during use and you end up with a single-grade oil anyway)
You ask for documents I offer the following... both of which confirm my comments above.
http://www.imajeep.com/2001%20Grand/Engine/4.7%20Write%20Up.htm
http://coulterc.home.mindspring.com/hemi/hemi.html
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BlackDak02
*GenIII*
2/06/2002
21:34:55
| RE: Synthetic Oil Difference!!!
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I have go along with Sandman & CW on this one, as long as there are no extreme fluctuations in temperature 10W-30 is the viscosity that I (just another "infidel") run.
2002 Black CC SLT 4x4
4.7L 45RFE 3.55 LSRD
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Wayne
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
2/08/2002
09:47:27
| RE: Synthetic Oil Difference!!!
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BruceP, The 1960s based engine has been the beneficiary of upgrades over the years and clearances are not significantly different between a '99 5.2 and a Y2k 4.7. Something else to consider is that it takes more modifiers to widen the range from 10w30 to 5w30. modifiers are not lubricants. Bottomline is you are getting less lubrication out of the 5w30 when compared to the 10w30. I go with sandman on this. I live in a climate where 5w30 isn't necessary and I would put the new 0w30 in my enemies lawnmower.
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sandman
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
2/08/2002
11:17:03
| RE: Synthetic Oil Difference!!!
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Well I did find information about the georotor oilpump being clearanced for 5w30. This so far is the only part clearanced for 5w30. This is not unique!! All of my Toyota trucks have used this system(georotor pump) as well.I have run everything from 5w50 to straight 60 in them. The 2001 service manual on 0-5 list both 5w30 and 10w30 as being prefered for temp. between 0 degree's F to 100 degree's F. My problem with light weight oils is as follows: The first is that their is no longterm data supporting the use of conventional light weight oils and long engine life! The second is if your oil starts to break down and loose viscosity and you have a 5w30 or 0w30 oil in you vechile how much protection are you getting then! How well do these 5w oils hold up at high speeds say in Savanha GA or maybe Death Valley in the summer time? It is a well known fact that conventional 10w30 breaks down at a rather quick rate at highway speeds, especialy in summer heat. It is a well known fact that viscosity improvers do nothing to help lube an engine that more additives means less oil. It is well known that sludge is primarly made up of broken down viscosity improvers and contaminents. It is well known that a 5w30 oil needs more viscosity improvers. The only real reason for a light weight oil is to meet C.A.F.E. standards and improve power figures on a dyno. The service manual does not preclude any multi-grade oil at all. It only precludes the use of single weight oils. It thens say " Select an engine oil that is best suited to your particular temperature range and variation." It also tells you to look for API starburst symbol and energy conserveing on the oils label. Until someone can show me longterm test results with conventional oil of a 5w30 provideing supior protectionin in cold and hot weather then I will never belive that a lighter weight oil is best for my crank bearings! I have nothing against anyone but it just seems like an awful lot of people are jumping on the light weight oil band wagon with no real proof of how it will affect the engine long-term. Just exercise some caution.
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Wayne
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
2/08/2002
16:26:34
| RE: Synthetic Oil Difference!!!
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I'll start off by saying I am not a trained oil specialist. That being said, I will say that I have been reading everything that I can find on oils and filters. I could write pages on the subject. I'm too lazy to write as much as sandman but must say that sandman wrote nothing that is contrary to what experts have said. Preferred 10w30 synthetic in the 48 states with a good filter and reasonable oil change intervals. Quality of oil and quality of filter plus driving conditions determine oil change intervals.
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Rice Body
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
2/09/2002
01:55:23
| RE: Synthetic Oil Difference!!!
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Gentlemen,
I own an 89' Nissan 4x4. Searching for my next truck, maybe a 5.9L Dakota QC 4x4. I'm trying to get a feel for the Dodge culture before I jump in and drop $30K. I have been involved with Nissan owner boards for years, and I have rarely seen this level of exasperation on an issue. Is it usually like this?
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Gary F
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
2/09/2002
03:03:57
|  RE: Synthetic Oil Difference!!!
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Rice Body, in answer to your question...I'm afraid so. I wouldn't let that stop you in your purchase of a Dakota though.
One question though..how do you spend $30K on a new Dakota? Seems that even a fully loaded QC 4X4 with a 5.9L it wouldn't be that much. I could be wrong though!
Have fun with your new truck.
Gary F.
'98 Neon R/T
'01 Dak reg cab 4X2, 4.7L, 5spd, 3.92LS
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Wayne
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
2/09/2002
07:52:37
| RE: Synthetic Oil Difference!!!
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Rice Body, If by "exasperation"you mean argueing/debating which oil is best I don't see it as exasperation. Most of us are very satisfied with our trucks and we are passionate about certain things. Oil and filters is an ongoing discussion and people are very opinionated about them. Once in a while someone gets stupid about a subject but for the most part an intelligent person can tell the difference between fact and fiction. Those people learn a lot here. I would like to say that I visit 2 other Dodge sites and 1 LS1 site and there is very little difference in the personalities. I have been a car nut for almost 40 years now and I learn a lot from these, sometimes, heated debates. Just don't let yourself get caught up in the "exasperation" and you will be allright. The 4X4 360 is a good choice. That is what I would have if I had need for a 4X4. Good luck.
'99 Dakota CC 5.2/auto/3.92 ls
'02 Trans Am
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Motorman
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
2/09/2002
10:31:28
| RE: Synthetic Oil Difference!!!
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Surprise, the 4.7 is NOT, I repeat, NOT a HEMI.
Its "almost like a Hemi" according to Cammer article in http://coulterc.home.mindspring.com/hemi/hemi.html
A HEMI has the valves totally opposed to one another.
THe 4.7 comes close, but close only counts in horseshoes and hand gernades.
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