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Fox
Dodge Dakota
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3/25/2005
12:47:29

Subject: Engine Identification
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I was wondering if anybody could tell me a way to tell the difference between a 318 and a 360. I was looking through a junkyard and found a few big Ram van's with V8's, and an older Ram Charger too. I wanna put it in my 98 V6 Dak, and Id rather have the 5.9...but I dont have any way to tell the difference between the two, theyre the same block arent they? Also, I wanted to know if there is any major difference between the engines used in the vans and the engines used in cars/trucks? Are the interchangable? Thanks for any infomation.

Fox



Zach
Dodge Dakota
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3/25/2005
13:13:02

RE: Engine Identification
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The blocks arent the same, but they are close in physical dimensions. All of the bolted on accessories are the same though (heads, intake manifold, ect.). I dont know if this goes for all Dodge's but for the Dakota the VIN number has a Z in it (8th one I think) if it is a 5.9L.
~Zach



modain
Dodge Dakota
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3/25/2005
13:24:38

RE: Engine Identification
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On all 1994+ Dodge vehicles the VIN's 8th position denotes the engine.

Z = 5.9l V8
Y = 5.2l V8
X = 3.9l V6
N = 4.7l V8
K = 3.7l V6




gen1dak
Dodge Dakota
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3/25/2005
13:49:20

RE: Engine Identification
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Zach, the heads and intakes on Pre_Magnums are not the same, though they will interchange. The 340/360 parts are bigger internally to allow greater airflow.
Fox, the 318/360's used in either the cars and trucks are the same with the exception of the oil pans. If the engine is intact, the 318's have a 2 barrel carb barely 3 inches across. The 360 will have one approx. 5 inches across, or possibly a 4 barrel carb. Look on the driver side of the block. There's a sequence of numbers cast into the block. The second segment of that number sequence will read 318 or 360 on all Pre-Magnum V8's. Mopar never made a 5.2/5.9 Magnum-powered car. More's the pity.



Fox
Dodge Dakota
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3/25/2005
20:57:51

RE: Engine Identification
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Wow I was really confused for a second on that last post...my nick is Fox but my real name is Zack :P Anyway...thanks a bundle, been an awesome help, does that apply to all 318/360s? Also, do you know if there is a vin code for pre-94 dodge vehicles? There was an 89 Ram van, and I believe the Ram Charger was in the 80's also. When did Dodge start making Magnum's anyway? And if I grab a pre-mag 360, can I get it to work with an EFI and all that to pass smog? Oh and one more thing, where at on the block is the number sequence stamped? Or is it like super obvious? Thanks again guys...awesome...I might be getting me a V8 soon ;)

Fox



mikec041
Dodge Dakota
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3/25/2005
21:19:38

RE: Engine Identification
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Use caution when buying junk yard engines from vans, They may be from commercial,delivery or rentals (u-hauls)and have been BADLY abused.After the cost of a rebuild it may not be worth the trouble.



gen1dak
Dodge Dakota
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3/26/2005
00:09:04

RE: Engine Identification
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Some VIN code help.
http://dodgeram.org/tech/gas/specs/id.html

More very good info on the A and LA/Magnum engines
http://www.allpar.com/mopar/318.html

Not really well-versed in VIN codes. Having grown up with Mopars, I can just know the different LA's on sight.
The block code is on the driver-side of the block. It can be hard to see, since it's below where the exhaust manifolds are. Time to get dirty and crawl into the wheel wells for a peek!
Magnum 318's appeared in 1992, Magnum 360's in 1993.
The info on 318/360 is true for all LA's (pre-Magnums).
The hot ticket from Mopar is Magnum heads and intake transplanted to an LA block. From there you can go carb or full-on Magnum MPI complete with all emissions, etc, so it'll work just fine. Just be aware that the LA blocks have the engine mount ears, but Magnums, while retaining the ears for use in older vehichles, mount in the trucks with a "triad" bolt section on the lower middle portion of the block. Just look at where yours is mounted now, that's how all the Magnums mount. So, you will need the bolt-in crossmember kit offered by these guys....
http://www.engine-swaps.com
Also, to use the Magnum heads, you will need to use hollow pushrods and oiling lifters (Jeep), and these are readily available...Manciniracing.com has all this stuff. To use the MPI, a small fab will be needed to mount the crank sensor on the LA block. Not a big deal really. Again, use your V6 as a reference....on the passenger side rear of the block. These minor issues aside, you can have Magnum power at a bargain price. As for fleet vehicles, the cop cars, and fleet vans, etc, were equipped with Moly-coated piston rings from the factory, and the blocks typically show very little cylinder wear with well over 100,000 miles. In fact, Hot Rod magagazine did a "Junkyard Jewel" buildup on a 318. They used a fleet service engine (if memory serves, it was a cop engine) with the stock block (no refresh-well over 100K mileage), and proceeded to nail 400HP at 6,000 rpm in a street package! Then they wondered what it'd do with a fresh bottom-end.



Fox
Dodge Dakota
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3/26/2005
01:13:25

RE: Engine Identification
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Wow, thanks a ton, gotta run me a trip back to the junkyard :) Do you think trying to find a 360 is worth it if the 318 can produce such amazing numbers? I should have specified, they werent the 15 passanger, no window, big cargo vans. They were the big TV laden 10 passanger cushy ride conversion vans. A few plymouth cars had V8's also...but I know even less of them :P Thanks for the awesome info, Ill be sure to check out all the sites. Also, on another board I was told that you need to use a balanced torque converter on the pre-mag 360's...problem is I have a manual trans. I know that there is a difference beween the balancing on the mag and pre-mag engines...I thought it was a flywheel/harmonic balancer thing. I read in a magazine that to 360's arent drilled from the factory for manuals, so Ill either need to cut off some of the input shaft on my trans or drill a hole in the crank to accept it. Which is fine with me, I just wanna make sure itll work, and that I dont need to steal the trans too :P

-Fox



gen1dak
Dodge Dakota
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3/27/2005
01:02:07

RE: Engine Identification
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The 360 will have extra low-end grunt. No matter how you shake it, the same technology, applied to both engines, the 360 has 42 more cubes. That means an inherent torque advantage (especially below 3,000rpm), and, to a lesser degree, a HP advantage.

Most of the 360's were not drilled for standard trannies. Typically, only the ones with a manual tranny were drilled. DO NOT cut your input shaft!!! Have the crank drilled, and bushed properly. Don't cut corners here. It will bite you if you try it, and then you'll have to pull it all back out and do it right anyway.

The 360 flywheel serves as a balancer for the 360. It does work in concert with the 360's harmonic balancer to balance the 360, and the weight is different with the 360 and the 5.9 Magnum, but if you happened to get a deal on a Magnum unit, you could have the weight adjusted to match the 360LA. For the automatics, the weight is on the torque converter.



DDOTY
Dodge Dakota
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3/27/2005
02:01:47

RE: Engine Identification
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Gen1dak,
On the 360 not being drilled far a manual, does that only apply to the LA or to the Magnum also? I am going to buy a 360 out of a RT to put in my 97 with a manual and would like to know beforehand. Thanks.



Fox
Dodge Dakota
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3/27/2005
12:13:31

RE: Engine Identification
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Yeah I wasnt planning to cut the input shaft :P They did in the magazine I read, but that was cause they bought a complete engine and didnt wanna tear it apart. So I need to try and get ahold of a flywheel/balancer from a 5.9 Magnum, and get them adjusted to the weight of 360's? Or did I read that wrong? Why use the magnum stuff over the 360's? Thanks a ton for all the information, been a huge help :) Im gonna try to get the 360, thats what I wanted to start with, but if its not there, the 318 is still better than my V6 :P Do you know if I would have to do anything special for that or would it just drop in? And DDOTY, you will have the same problem I believe. Its why the R/T was never offered with a manual trans. Your problem though, is that youre getting a complete, running engine, that youll have to tear apart to have the crank drilled :/ Im not sure if I would opt for chopping off the input shaft...you could always switch to an auto ;) One more question gen1...since Im going to have to ditch my current exhaust, how big is good? Will 3in pipes be good? I cant use 3in on my V6 cause itll actually lose power Im told. Does it really matter how big I go with exhaust? And also, if I dont get headers and just use the stock exhaust manifolds, is having big flowing exhaust pointless? Thanks again :)

-Fox



gen1dak
Dodge Dakota
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3/27/2005
13:32:54

RE: Engine Identification
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Sorry for the confusion over the balancing issue. What you need to do is match the series of the crank with the flywheel. ie: LA to LA or Mag to Mag., crank, balancer and flywheel(or convertor as the case may be) As long as they are balanced for each other you'll be OK. MP offers a balance kit in the old catalog, probably still in the system.



Fox
Dodge Dakota
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3/27/2005
14:30:26

RE: Engine Identification
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Ok got it. Could you put a Mag crank in a LA block? If you can, is there any reason to? And any ideas on the exhaust? You seem pretty up on Dodge stuff :P



gen1dak
Dodge Dakota
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3/27/2005
15:50:11

RE: Engine Identification
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DDOTY. The official word is that most Magnum cranks are drilled for the pilot bushing, but not all are finished to the proper size for the bushing. If it can be driven into place, you're good, but otherwise it'll need finishing. No promises. Sorry.

Uhh, Fox,the dickless wonder that made this comment in my screen name...
"Sorry for the confusion over the balancing issue. What you need to do is match the series of the crank with the flywheel. ie: LA to LA or Mag to Mag., crank, balancer and flywheel(or convertor as the case may be) As long as they are balanced for each other you'll be OK. MP offers a balance kit in the old catalog, probably still in the system."......is not me. The typo "convertor" is another clue.

Now, on using the Magnum flywheel....Use it if you're going to retain the MPI. There's a built-in exciter ring for the crank position sensor to read. On a carbureted application, you wouldn't need the Magnum over LA.
You can swap cranks, but no advantage there. With a Magnum crank, the LA flywheel would need rebalance (weight removed). On an LA crank, the Magnum flywheel will need rebalance (weight added). The harmonic balancers, while they will fit, are also of different weights, and must be used in their intended application, 360LA or Magnum. No swaps. They could be adjusted with weight, but if it's a used damper, best to get a new one for the intended application.

On exhaust, anything you can do to open it up will help. On a 318, I'd go duals with 2.25-inch pipes. Or, a single 2.5-inch pipe. For a 6,000 rpm 318 or any 360, I'd definitely use dual 2.5's or a single 3-inch. Even with stock exhaust manifolds, a good free-flowing setup will help.

On using the 318, nothing special there. Both the V6 and 318 are zero-balance engines...meaning, no external weight on the flywheels/flexplates. Everything swaps, with exception of the obvious like the oil pan and intake/exhaust manifolds. You will need a 318 flywheel if using MPI, since the V6 flywheel has only 6 windows for the crank sensor, and you will need 8. You will need a V8 distributor, either 318 or 360. V8 computer, and either wire in 2 wires for the 7th and 8th cylinder injectors, or get the V8 engine harness.



Fox
Dodge Dakota
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3/28/2005
02:22:26

RE: Engine Identification
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Wonderful :) I do plan to keep the full MPI, so either get a magnum crank or get the magnum flywheel rebalanced right? Not too hard :) Maybe even pick up a stroker crank while im at it :P (LoL...just kidding). If I keep the LA crank and re-balance the magnum flywheel, I will still use the original LA harmonic balancer right?

So...is there any reason to use dual 2.5in over a single 3in? Other than the cost of two cats/mufflers that is. You could always just put a Y-Pipe at the end to get the cool "dual exhaust look" (cheesy :P)...but true duals will still flow better right? Also, its been bugging me for the longest time, its kinda off-topic, but what is a cat-back exhaust? Like, you can buy an after-cat exhaust kit, or a full exhaust kit, or a cat-back...whats the difference?! "Cat-back" and "after-cat" sound like theyre the same thing to me...im kinda lost...

Well anyway, I prolly wont post for a while, going on a little 4 day vacation, thanks a ton for all the help, and I hope I didnt wear you out with all my questions :)

-Fox



gen1dak
Dodge Dakota
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3/28/2005
11:06:32

RE: Engine Identification
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Cat-back and after cat are the same. Actually, a single 3-inch will handily outflow dual 2.25's. Dual 2.5's would be in a pretty close run with a single 3-incher--weird, huh? True duals would sound a bit more vicious. There's a weight savings with the single 3-incher.
On harmonic balancers, yeah, when it comes to 360's, keep it in the family, meaning LA with LA, Magnum with Magnum since the weights are different.
Stick with Magnum flywheel for MPI.
No problem with the questions.



Fox
Dodge Dakota
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4/03/2005
01:32:35

RE: Engine Identification
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Well I want a good tone, but i dont want something really loud or obnoxious. I would like a nice rumble at idle, just enough to know its a throaty v8. Nothing major unless i REALLY put my foot in it. Although, that would matter more with the muffler wouldnt it? I was thinking something in the flowmaster 40 series. True duals is just so cool...but one more muffler and more plubming...LoL :P Thanks again for all the help, do you by chance have an aim screenname? Or any instant messanger for that matter? If you have one and dont wanna post, you can e-mail me at RandomAccess@cliffhanger.com Hope to hear from you, talk to ya later.

-Fox



Fox
Dodge Dakota
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4/05/2005
15:16:46

RE: Engine Identification
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*bump*



gen1dak
Dodge Dakota
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4/05/2005
23:55:41

RE: Engine Identification
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Back in the old days of the internet, back when AOL had 2 million members, I did the chat thing, but I've been outta that since the mid-90's. It turns into too much virtual reality, not enough actual reality.



Lemmon714
Dodge Dakota
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4/06/2005
11:40:45

RE: Engine Identification
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Can you explain how a single 3" can outflow dual 2.25's? The dual 2.25's have more area than a single 3". I am just curious about your statement. Thank you.



gen1dak
Dodge Dakota
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4/07/2005
00:46:25

RE: Engine Identification
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Briefly, it's more than just the total area that determines flow. It is also the speed at which the exhaust moves.
So:
Specific port flow (cubic meters/sec.) = Flow Velocity (m/sec) X Average Path Area (meters squared). Typically, when all the numbers are plugged in, a 3" will outflow a dual 2.25 inch system. Granted, I'm sure someone somewhere has an example where this isn't the case. As I said, IN GENERAL, this is the case. It still seems like the duals would flow better, but you have to take into consideration that the flow velocity of the duals is set at a rate for the 2.25" pipe, and the gas flow is divided by two pipes of that given area. The single 3incher has all gas through a single given area. This single pipe's area x the velocity of said exhaust will typically produce higher flow rates. It's a geometric progression.
Another example of geometric progression is in the case of impact energy of a bullet. Double the weight of a bullet, you double the impact energy. Double the speed of a given bullet and you triple the impact energy. Go figure.



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