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RaZoR1
Dodge Dakota
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2/27/2004
18:31:52

Subject: TB and Supecharger
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Would a larger TB still increase horsepower if you already have a supercharger?? 2000, 4.7 auto with kenne bell S/C.



steve sharp
Dodge Dakota
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2/27/2004
20:34:21

RE: TB and Supecharger
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I have a KB S/C with the 4.7 2002. You dont need a larger TB. You wouldnt notice the HP gain if there was one. All the kits are designed for the specific applications anyway to get the optimum out of the motor. But its your call and maybe someone else has gotten a different result. Of course, I added a 50 shot nitros kit and I do notice that!



RaZoR1
Dodge Dakota
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2/28/2004
12:19:08


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That's what i figured.... the thing's pretty much force feeding it and i can't see a TB not allowing the charger to pull the air it wants. Nitrous eh???? No blown up yet??? LOL.... i thought that wasn't the best idea for a supercharged motor.... I guess a 50 shot ain't much though. What are you running in the 1/4?? and which Dak you got (regular cab, extended quad, 5spd auto???)



steve sharp
Dodge Dakota
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2/28/2004
18:27:14

RE: TB and Supecharger
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Ive got the Quad Cab 4x4 with the 5 speed auto. So far no problems and I wont go any higher on the nitros until I put the forged pistons and HO cams in it. Its really only the cast pistons that limit your boost and nitros. KB claims you can run 10psi boost with 100oct race gas. Ive done it, but it sucks for the street. I will be running it in the 1/4 as soon as the track opens early this year when weather is good. I really want to run the 150 shot for the track but need the pistons first.



LoneStar
Dodge Dakota
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2/29/2004
00:41:17

RE: TB and Supecharger
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You most certainly WILL see an increase in power with a larger TB, and you'll see more boost on the boost gauge too. The blower is pushing against the TB - the TB is a restriction in the intake manifold. Reduce the restriction with a larger TB and more air will enter the engine - more air, more power assuming the fuel deilivery is adequate.

The caveat here is that the S/C kit is designed for a stock engine, and modding the engine much might throw off the tuning, making for a lean condition and a possible burn-down. But in theory, anything you can do to improve airflow into or out-of the engine will let the blower push more air through it, and that means more power.



steve sharp
Dodge Dakota
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2/29/2004
02:40:26

RE: TB and Supecharger
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Dont listen to that last post as he is confused about the type of blower we have. The KB DOES NOT push any air against the TB, as we both know it is a twin screw design. It is designed to work with the correct fuel and air mixture that the computer is set up for. The only way to increase the boost is to change the pulley on this type of blower to suck in more air and the computer compensates for the air fuel mixture. This is why you would have to go to a higher octane rating if you go over the 7psi setting. Other wise you would get detonation. The blower would still only suck in the same amount of air even if you went bigger with the TB. The setup would have a problem only if you went to a smaller inlet. The pully is what adjusts the boost not the TB with this manifold mounted S/C.



Scott
Dodge Dakota
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3/01/2004
13:26:09

RE: TB and Supecharger
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I really love the "Dont listen to that last post as he is confused about the type of blower we have". Obviously you are not part of that "we" and do not own a KB supercharger or if you do you do not understand how it operates.

A simple look at the KB setup explains it all:
http://www.kennebell.net/superchargers/dodge/52-59ram-dakota/52-59-dakota-durango.htm

The Kenne Bell supercharger is a twin screw however it pressurizes the inlet side of the throttle body just like Paxton, Vortech, etc. A larger TB would take some drag off the supercharger and could allow more boost into the engine. It really depends on how how the system was designed and how well the control system could control your A/F ratio. Without that you could run lean which would not be good.

Scott





steve sharp
Dodge Dakota
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3/01/2004
15:45:53

RE: TB and Supecharger
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I guess I wasnt clear enough on my response. The air is sucked in thru the TB. The S/C kit is designed for the factory TB. If you change this (as I wrote) you may encounter detonation or destroy his motor in a worse case situation. And I do have one and I also wrote that if anyone else has had a different experience changing their throttle body let him know. Next time I'll just say the S/C was desined for the stock motor and change anything else at own risk. Sound better? And after reading my last response it does sound confusing. At least I can admit it.:)



Scott
Dodge Dakota
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3/01/2004
21:46:00

RE: TB and Supecharger
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The picture of the KB supercharger I posted above shows the supercharger pressurizing a runner going into the top of the TB? Is this not how yours is? I run a Vortech at 10-12 psi and also have water/alcohol injection start at 5psi. Works very well and runs like normal engine unless your foot is into the pedal.

Scott



steve sharp
Dodge Dakota
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3/02/2004
00:20:46

RE: TB and Supecharger
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Now I see why you were confused on what I was trying to explain. This is totally different than the S/C setup they have for the 4.7L. On the 4.7 the air is pulled in thru the intake and TB and not pushed thru. You can see it on the KB site also. I run 7psi and its the same way as yours basically. When you floor it you get full boost, and any other time you are running 0 to 5psi. You can up the boost by changing pulleys also. But again, they are designed for the stock TB. I even ran the 10psi for awhile but now that Ive got nitrous I went back to 7psi with a 50 shot. Cant go any further until I get the forged pistons. Hope that clears up some more of what I was trying to explain the first time. Although that 5.2-5.9 setup looks pretty cool too.



j
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3/02/2004
10:49:17

RE: TB and Supecharger
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The inlet side of the TB is not pressurized. I switched from the stock 65mm to a 68mm and noticed a small improvement but no big deal. I don't think it helps to go any bigger. I measured the dia of the s/c inlet and it was less than 70mm as I recall. I don't think it would help to have a TB that was bigger than the s/c inlet.

2000 4.7 CC auto, clear corners, Spintech true duals, Kenne Bell s/c, Aquamist water injection.

Lonnie
Dodge Dakota
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3/02/2004
12:10:29

RE: TB and Supecharger
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dont forget the basics more air in more air out= more HP remember these are just air pumps.....of course the comp has to keep up



Scott
Dodge Dakota
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3/02/2004
20:50:21

RE: TB and Supecharger
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More air only helps if you have a fuel supply that can keep up. Otherwise you risk running lean. A water/alcohol injection set-up really adds some horsepower also. My intake temp drops about 50 degrees F when it kicks on and you can feel the power increase (not to mention it reduces your risk of detonation).

Does the KB kit have its own fuel controller? Would a reflashed PCM with an advanced ignition curve improve its performance? Different fuel maps?

Scott



steve sharp
Dodge Dakota
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3/02/2004
23:15:16

RE: TB and Supecharger
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Yea, the KB is supplied with a new fuel rail (2 extra injectors) a flashed stock computer plus their optimizer II computer. You can also add an alcohol/water cooler if you want, but as long as you run 10psi or less with 92-100oct gas, depending on the boost, you dont need it. But like you said, you could add it and probably run a lower oct. in the higher boost mode. With the price of gas so high it might not be a bad investment. Is your alc/water injection stand alone or is it the windsheild washer container type that saves space?



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