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steveo2777787
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2/02/2004
23:38:16

Subject: 87 4x4 V8 swap?
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is it possible to swap a premagnum 318 into a 4wd 87 dakota? what would it take to do it, the part numbers on the motor mounts cross reference between the gen I V6 and the gen II V8s. i know for a fact i would have to hook up an electric fan like the 89 shelby's had. i wanna run a carb, so i dont have to piss with electric hookups on the fuel injection. i have read that the 3.9 v6 and 67-92 (not countin Magnum) 318 v8s are the "LA" series engine. so would it be possible to find an "LA" 318 and just drop it in, b/c theretically the 318 and 3.9 share the same motor mounts??? i was thinkin of lookin for a 70s or early 80s 4wd Dodge truck or 4wd Ramcharger with a 318 in it since its comin from a 4wd, shouldnt it fit my 4wd, or be pretty close to fitting??

has anyone actually done this and has proof. ive seen posts of people doin it, but no proof.


any advice is helpful, i am tryin to get everything figured out so i can play and start this swap over summer.

thanks



tex69camaro
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2/03/2004
13:23:58

RE: 87 4x4 V8 swap?
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well i have done it, and i drive it daily, and take it to the track, weather u want to believe me is up to you i guess....
as far as the swap goes, the LA motors will bolt up to your tranny directly. infact you can use all your front drive accessories, starter, etc, etc as well. but i would watch the durability of the tranny if you decide to stay with the stocker and plan to play hard in the mud. as far as the mounts go, mine was a 4-banger, i have been told you can fab the v6 mounts to get them to work. but i would contact schumaker at www.engine-swaps.com to see what he says. also, a LA motor, is a LA motor, no matter what its from. so you could use a 273/318/360 from a dodge dart, and it would drop in just as easy as a 273/318/360 from a 4x4. in fact mine is from a 74 dart haha.
tex



steveo2777787
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2/03/2004
13:59:37

RE: 87 4x4 V8 swap?
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hey tex, can i have your email, i have a few more questions for ya about your swap. is yours a 4x4? and are the motor mounts the same between the 3.9 and 318?



vern
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2/03/2004
18:06:43

RE: 87 4x4 V8 swap?
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you,ll have to fab mounts,there is no one that makes them for the 4x4s[2wd yes]

the 2wd are a rack and pinion,4x4 have a steering box and this is where the problem lies when you use the LA motor with just the mount ears,you can
get around this by fab your mounts.

also you,ll need a oil pan and pick up tube from a v8 dak 4x4,[about $120 from dealer]problem with clearance with front housing

and you already know about the fan

these are the 3 issues you,ll have getting the motor in and running



steveo2777787
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2/03/2004
18:56:39

RE: 87 4x4 V8 swap?
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couldnt i get around the motor mount problem using a magnum 318 from a gen II 4wd dakota. or would i have to get the motor mounts out of it and somehow adapt them to my frame?

what does it take to fab up a set of motor mounts? im only 18 and me and my dad (between the 2 of us, we are pretty good at welding and workin) are goin to be doin this over summer, so i have about 4 months to completely plan everythin and about 2 months to find a good donor motor and get it runnin.

vern you seem to know what goin on, could you possibly give me your email so i can get in touch with you?



vern
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2/04/2004
09:09:02

RE: 87 4x4 V8 swap?
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the mag v8 from a genII will fit,you,ll have to do one of two things,have the heads drilled and dapped on the mag heads to except the old style intake,hughes engines .com or a good machine shop may do it,

or change heads to the pre mag heads,and drill the block for oil holes to the heads,you,ll need to the change the push rods to the 88-91 v6 or v8,
these have the roller lifters also,

mopar makes the M1 intake for a carb to bolt on the mag motor[at least the last i know they did]

you can put the hood,grill,bumper and rad support
from the genIIs[91-96] on your 87 and get about 4"
more room for the fan to mount on the motor

what ever way you and your dad decide to go these are the basic problems you,ll have with the change
with the LA or mag motor.

mag this post,,,,,LA the post before,,,,,

the LA engines are cheaper and your going carb,
if you go with the 88-91 318s you,ll have the roller cam block [some 86 & 87 did too]

good luck and thinking about what you want to do
and how much you want to spend



steveo2777787
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2/04/2004
16:37:19

RE: 87 4x4 V8 swap?
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so vern, what your sayin is that if i run an LA 318, i would have to fab up motor mounts? are the mounts on the front of the LA block?? or are they on the side of the block under the middle 2 exhaust ports? (if they are in the middle, they should come up pretty close to mounting to the stock ones).

id prefer to not have to mess around wiht changin heads and drilling oil holes and havin to change manifolds. i would like to find a running engine, and just tune it up and drop it in wiht out doin major engine work.

so my best bet would be to find a LA 318 from the 80s up til 91? about the fan issue, i am goin to do what they did to shelby dakotas and run an electric fan, instead of on the block. i have read that you use a 68 or older water pump because the shaft is 7/8" shorter than the newer ones, this true?

do you have any specs on the LA block? does anyone know where i can find a good diagrahm of the engine to figure out the motor mounts?

thanks,
-steve



vern
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2/04/2004
20:55:03

RE: 87 4x4 V8 swap?
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the LA blocks have ears near the front two cyl
[#1 & #2] on each side on the block for the mounts

the v6s and v8 daks have three bolt holes that the motor mounts bolt too,near the center of the block[total different from LA block]if you go with the LA,get the mounts with it and build what you need for the frame,the pass side is easy the driver side is harder because of the steering box.

the older pumps are shorter but the bottom rad hose is on the wrong side for the rad.
this will work but you,ll need to fab a bottom hose[i,m talking 60s early 70s pump]

hope this helps some



gen1dak
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2/04/2004
21:41:16

RE: 87 4x4 V8 swap?
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Vern, maybe I missed something, but I'm wondering why you say "A Magnum from a GenII will fit...." and then go on to say the heads will have to be drilled and tapped. Ummm, why would you do this for engine mounts?
Steveo....the LA has mounting ears in the usual place for all Mopar smallblocks. They're near the front, and on the block, not the heads. The Magnums have their mounting triad points low-center of the block, but also retain the LA-style mounting ears up front. Basically, what Shelby did was add a crossmember forward of the center member with engine mount pads welded to them. This allowed use of the standard engine mounts. Use of the old-style water pump means changing the timing gear cover as well for timing purposes, and the inlet/outlet positions are opposite. Best to not go there.



steveo2777787
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2/05/2004
21:34:22

RE: 87 4x4 V8 swap?
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hey gen, i know the mounts are not on the heads, but i was wondering where they were on the block, which i found out. when i was talkin about the heads, vern said the oil hole on the block dont match the head if i were to use pre mag heads on a magnum, i said nothin about the mounts.

vern, so you sayin if i were to get a premag 318, to take the motor mounts too and use them and fab up the rest to mount the motor.


one more thing you said in a previous post that mopar makes (made) a magnum M1 intake for a carb? i could bolt this the magnum 318 and eliminate all the EFI crap and run a carb and linkage like i have now, what about the ignition, would i have to change it over to electronic, or could i leave it points type? about the headers on the magnum, just find ones for a '92 and newer V8 dakota?



gen1dak
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2/05/2004
22:58:42

RE: 87 4x4 V8 swap?
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Yeah, I figured there was something left out /cause it just didn't make sense, and judging from the content, I figured there was some other engine info being discussed.
Actually, MP markets a single plane and a dual plane carb intake for the Magnum. Also, Edelbrock has announced that they will be releasing a Performer RPM Air Gap carb intake by mid year 2004.
Even a single-point distributor for a '68 318 will drop right into the Magnum block if you wish. Points or electronic, take your pick. You can toss all the EFI stuff and run all carb. You'll need a single inlet, dual outlet fuel pressure regulator. Plumb the second outlet into the fuel return line. Mine's a great unit from Mallory.
As for running LA heads on a Magnum block....true, the Magnum blocks are not drilled to oil in this fashion, but they can be. An easier way around this is to use the roller-cam LA rockers ('85-'91). The roller-cam units oiled through the pushrods, just like the Magnums. The rockers have the oil hole relocated to direct the oil as it comes through the pushrod, so the rockers are lubed properly. The pre-roller LA's will not work properly in this role. MP sells the pushrods intended for this application, and since the Magnum lifters are oilers, you're all set if you went that way.
Headers. Any that will fit the truck, and a smallblock Mopar V8 will work. They all bolt up, LA or Magnum.



steveo2777787
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2/05/2004
23:28:19

RE: 87 4x4 V8 swap?
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ok gen1, thanks for the input. you seem to know whats goin on.

so i can run a magnum 318 with M1 carb intake and carb and use a points distributor ( any specific year?) to fire it off. what bout the charging system? just swap everythin over from the 3.9 or use what is on the new engine (im lookin for a complete engine) im tryin to keep this simple as possible. dealin with the smog pumps and air tubes, just switch everythin over from the 3.9?

about the fuel line, just plumb everythin like it is now for the 3.9? is the water pump an issue?
i am goin to run an electric fan like the shelbys, so what should i do about the water pump shaft? and am i goin to have any other issues dealin with wiring? or will the wiring match up with how the 3.9 is wired?

if you some how have a wiring diagram or know of one, could you pass it along? any help is good help. thanks.



vern
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2/06/2004
10:57:46

RE: 87 4x4 V8 swap?
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gen I dak,where did you get the info on 85-91 5.2
& 3.9 oiling through the push rods? there still a
shift mounted rockers and have the oiling holes in the heads.

mopar changed oiling threw the push rods in 92 when they want to the mag head,that is a stud,ball
and socket.

i,m not saying your wrong,but tell or show me where you got your info.

i was giving steve different options or ways he could go with a mag or LA motor with a carb,
heads and intakes,motor mounts,water pumps,cost
etc

i told him the LA motor is probable the easiest and cheapest,because he wants to go carb...
he,ll have to fab mounts[$50] and the oil pan[about $100]plus motor

the mag motor he,ll have to deal with the intake,
buy a M1[$300] or drill and tap the heads[$200] to except the LA intake plus the carb and maybe the oil pan,the mounts no problem,plus motor

then the dist conversion [$200]from summit etc

these are the things steve will have to deal with
and figure out to install a v8 in a 87 dak 4x4



gen1dak
Dodge Dakota
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2/06/2004
16:25:47

RE: 87 4x4 V8 swap?
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It's an accumulation of information. From "How To Rebuild Your Small Block Mopar", it states the '85-'86 318 still has solid pushrods, despite the conversion to roller cams. The first 318 rollers were in the cars, with trucks coming later (thus trucks retained flat tappet cam and long solid pushrods a little longer), and the 360's tended to follow a year or so after the 318's, so they had to do all this in transition. They retained the traditional oil passages to oil as all LA's had til then. That way, it didn't matter where a particular engine was in the transition phase. It had a traditional oil flow regardless of what pushrods it used. From the '89 Dakota FSM, it shows oiling via rocker shafts, as well as via hollow pushrods. My '89 318 has the hollow pushrods. When I first looked at the rockers, something didn't seem right. Having the image of 1969 318 rockers burned into my brain, I did a double-take. Then, side-by-side, the oil hole change in the pushrod cup is obvious. Oiling via the pushrods only is easily more than sufficient, as is now seen with the Magnums, as well as millions of other engines from other brands. I have personally transplanted the '89 heads, complete with the rockers, and used the old-style long pushrods since the '84 used a flat tappet(but the pushrods were hollow to oil the rockers). Works fine. The rockers get a nice oil bath. Plenty. Really. I wouldn't get behind this sort of stuff if I didn't know it worked.



gen1dak
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2/06/2004
17:04:02

RE: 87 4x4 V8 swap?
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steveo....ummm, on the exhaust. You mentioned smog tubes, etc. I'm thinking you may need that stuff from a V8 vehicle since the engine is longer, more cylinders, etc, so the V6 stuff may be too short. Ya need to check that, but is emissions an issue? You're gonna have to get new exhaust manifolds for a V8, so unless you're gonna have emissions testing, slap some Magnum OEM manifolds on there. No air injecotr issues. If your V8 has injection ports, tap and plug them. The Magnums flow better anyway. If emissions is an issue, secure the V8 tubes. I'd graft all I could from the V6. It matches the truck, so no surprises, as may be the case with a new engine. Different year, different connectors, as the case may be. As for ignition, you have to use a 318 distributor for 1967-2003. Any distributor will fit. Regarding points, that's a late 60's-early 70's deal. They're dirt cheap. You will need the ballast resistor for a points setup. My deal uses a points unit that's been upgraded with Pertronix Flamethrower coil and electronic module. Initially, I used a single-point unit left over from my '69 Charger days.
Water pump. Not a problem. Remember, the V6 is essentially a 318 with 1/2 of the front two cylinders cut off, 1/2 of the rear two cylinders cut off, then the crank is offset to match. Anyway, that's the general idea, but the otherwise it's very parts-common with the 318, and this includes bolt patterns. The water pump shaft still has the pulley assembly bolted to it, just no fan, so a little more sticks out through the pulley. No problem. Now, the fuel line may be an issue. I'd route it just as it came from the factory. The issue may or may not be fuel starvation. It really depends on how hungry the new engine will be. Try it. If it bellyflops on the top end, you may have to plumb in a larger line.
Keep this in mind. The Shelby Dakota is a V6 Dakota Sport. The only issues you'll have electrically involve the number of cylinders you'll have.



steveo2777787
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2/06/2004
17:37:23

RE: 87 4x4 V8 swap?
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vern, you talked about a distribuator conversion, what all is this exactly??

gen 1, as for the emissions issue, i know a shop and as long as i have all the stuff on and and it atleast works, theyll pass it.. it doesnt have to work 100%, but just enough. so i just get all the smog tubes and air pumps off the 318 and use them and hook all up like the existing ones?

about the fuel issue, could i just put a bigger fuel pump on it thatll pump more fuel, or couldnt the stock lines handle the added pressure ( these are original lines ) ?

about the M1 intake for the carb, do you know if summit racing or jegs carries them ( i havent seen them on the sites yet) or would i have to go to my dodge garage and have them order it? and how big of a carb if i want to run the mag 318 stock with a mild cam and headers? iv seen to run between a 450 and a 650 cfm. and the oil pan, if i got a 318 from a 4wd truck would it work or would i have to mod it anyways?

i think i got it figured out for the most part.

thanks once again,
-steve



gen1dak
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2/06/2004
18:28:47

RE: 87 4x4 V8 swap?
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Okay, I was looking at my '89 FSM to see the air injection tubes. There was still some common sense at Mopar. They used a rubber hose running from the air pump to the back of the engine, where it ties in with the metal tubing. The metal tubing is the same for V6 and V8. It starts at the back of the engine, and the width is the same. The rubber hose can be cut to te proper length, or replaced with a longer segment. Mind you, the '87 may be a bit different, but it's gonna be similar, so you should be able to use the V6 hard parts. You will need exhaust manifolds from an 80's model V8. Wait, you mentioned headers. Are they gonna be made with tie-ins for the air injection? The rubber hose may even be long enough without replacement, so check it out before you go buy another.
Jegs and Summit usually carry some Mopar stuff, but I go to Manciniracing.com before them. Mancini is pure Mopar, and their prices are very competitive. I've always had great service with them.
Fuel pump. That's a sticky issue. There comes a point where a line will reach maximum flow, no matter how much pressure you have. I think it'd handle a moderate V8. It did fine with the stock 318. If you plumb in the regulator I mentioned (Mallory, single inlet, dual outlet) the lines will only have to tolerate 5-10psi. Any excess pressure is simply vented through the fuel return line back to the tank. Naturally, you should replace any rubber parts of the fuel line because of the age. Carb size: Do yourself a favor and go no smaller than a 650. With the Edelbrock AFB or AVS, you can even run the 800's due to the way the secondaries function. The AVS is a newly released version of the Carter AVS. It's super easy to adjust the rate the secondaries open with a flat screwdriver. The AFB's are controlled by airflow vs counterweights. Simple and they work. If you get the 650, on an essentially stock Magnum, you can just bolt it on and stomp it. The metering rods are easy to change, and Edelbrock sends a tuning chart to help get it just right. I bought a 750 Competition Series Carter AFB several years ago with my current project in mind (it's just taking forever). I've had great success with these carbs. Either type will not bog like others, and you'll have extra capacity for future mods. Keep in mind, the Magnum heads flow like the old 340 X heads, so they move a considerable amount of air. The engine will have better volumetric efficiency, which means it'll make better use of available carb capability, so it's less likely to be over-carbed.
If the distributor conversion is what I'm thinkin' Vern was talking about, it's the Mopar Performance kit with distributor, performance box and wiring. Mancini has the for $169 under the Mancini name, or $200ish for Mopar brand.
http://www.manciniracing.com/
http://store.yahoo.com/chucker54/elconkit.html
http://store.yahoo.com/chucker54/inman.html
One very important matter to remember. If you get a Magnum, but want to use you're conventional V-belt pulleys, and not the serpentine belt, you must remember that the Magnum water pump and fan run in the opposite direction as the LA pumps so don't even try to mix them. Your V6 parts should bolt on like they were born there.



vern
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2/06/2004
19:13:32

RE: 87 4x4 V8 swap?
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genI,thanks for the info,i did,nt realize or notice that they had done this with the push rods
when they changed over to roller lifters,i,llhave to check that out.

steve should be set with the fuel line,87s are carb,same size as old trucks and they used the manaul pump

dist conv comes with dist,wiring and ecu box



dr
Dodge Dakota
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2/06/2004
23:38:48

RE: 87 4x4 V8 swap?
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im looking to put a 318 in an 88 dakota but what i want to know is where i can find the mounts to fit since there is a 2.2 motor in mine now and what else will i have to do



WipLash
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2/07/2004
00:11:15

RE: 87 4x4 V8 swap?
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Another great thing about the AVS/AFB/Elderbrok carbs are the metering rods. There is no power valve to fail or bowl gaskets to leak like on the Holley. Although, the Holley and all of it's spin-offs are better racing carbs. Also, the metering rods can be easily tailored so that you run lean at cruising speeds and rich at wide open throttle. I can tune a BIG BLOCK to get 18mpg on the interstate. You should easily be able to average 20mpg on the highway and still blow the doors off most trucks.



steveo2777787
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2/07/2004
00:44:13

RE: 87 4x4 V8 swap?
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sounds good guys.. thanks for the input.

gen 1, about the headers, im gonna look for one with the air tubes already on them ( like some of the edelbrocks ) or if not ill drill and tap the headers and set up the air tubes like the 3.9 has, that work?

you say manciniracing.com is pretty good with prices and i can trust them with quality parts?

and about the belt, i dont want to mess around wiht the serpentine. i just switch everythin over from the 3.9 including the water pump correct?

wip, you say that i can run the edelbrock carb and tune it right and average 20 mpg highway on a fairly stock 318? thats better than what iv ever seen with the underpowered 3.9. im gettin maybe 16 mpg highway if im lucky

anythin else guys??



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