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93dakman
Dodge Dakota
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11/23/2003
22:05:26

Subject: Hey AmsoilSponsor
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Hey,
I've been using Havoline 10w-30 and it is about time for an oil change. I've been wanting to try out a Synthetic oil in my truck, but I don't know if it is good on my engine to go from Havoline to a Synthetic. My dad has told me that it will blow up my engine if I switch over. I will buy Amsoil oil though, if I can. How do I get a Amsoil Catalog?



Slick fishin
Dodge Dakota
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11/23/2003
23:09:08

RE: Hey AmsoilSponsor
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I use Amsoil OW-30 in my truck and I love it.. I also use Amsoil in my boat since it was new with no problem and I push them both real hard.. Cya Slick





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11/24/2003
08:49:57

Amsoil Sponsor - Havoline - Free Catalog
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Havoline IS NOT a "bad" oil, but you can do better for very little extra $$$.

The oil in question is a Hydrocracked "Pretend" Synthetic Oil (a Group III base oil --- vs. a Group IV or Group V which are the base oils used in 100% TRUE Synthetics). Thanks to Castrol (for screwing up the labeling in the Lubricants Industry), any Dino that has been refined an additional time can be referred to as Hydrocracked "Synthetic". Layman's terms: It's like an ugly girl wearing 1/2 inch of makeup to look beautiful.

However, just as all oils are not alike, ... not all hydrocracked oils are bad. Some are quite good, and there are some exceptional hydrocracked oils in the marketplace. The quality of any oil is not just the "base" oil ... but also the additive package. That is why the better quality oils cost more. Simple isn't it --- and that is why Royal Purple, Redline, Schaeffers, and Amsoil all cost more than Mobil1.

The Havoline oils with "Equilon" on the bottle don't get much respect (Not the best for "cold Crank" capabilities and Viscosity Stability protection. They used a weak (cheap) additives package to cut costs. Note If you live in the "Sunbelt" where you will have mild winters you will be alright. If you live in the North with harsh winters --- save the Havoline for the Summer. Use it in everything that you own (especially your lawn and garden equipment, where it is better suited) and this is not an oil that should not be run more than 3 - 4,000 miles.
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Havoline is one of a long line of oils manufactured by Chevron. The way to differentiate Chevron Oils (since they market so many different oils under different labels, --- in order of quality:

Chevron Delo 400
Texaco Ursa Premium
Chevron Supreme
Chevron/Texaco Havoline
Chevron RPM
Texaco Ursa Super Plus, etc.
Plus the Gulf Lubricants that Chevron makes.

... and marketed by Amoco are the Amoco lubricants that are made by Chevron.
__________________________________________________

For those that did not see it, there was another post asking about Havoline and here is is reprinted for your convenience:

I always thought Havoline to be a good "dino" oil, until lately when it started getting bashed because of Equilon (read below). You can blame the oil companies for the confusion. With so many changes, mergers, and acquisitions in the oil industry, it's almost impossible to keep up with who is making what and who is selling what, and very difficult to have any brand loyalty. Up until just a few years ago, you knew who you were dealing with, --- now you have no idea at all. This person was interested in Havoline 5w-40.

My Response: There are three very different Havoline 5w-40's in the market place currently. One is produced by Shell and the other by Equilon --- Equilon is no longer producing (they were - pardon my French - CRAP), but some of their supply is still around (and will be for many months) --- AND THE "NEW" Havoline is (I believe) a "relabeled" Shevron Supreme. VERY CONFUSING FOR CONSUMERS.

(If you recall --- as part of "the deal", the Havoline Lubricants Division was handed from Shell to Chevron/Texaco). Some of the Havoline oil at the "big box" stores is not made by Chevron/Texaco but is the old stock made by Equilon (Shell). The Flash Points, Pour Points, and Viscosity Index numbers for all the products are quite different. The $1.99 qt. is the "old stuff" (Group III dino). I have seen it in some of the "big box" stores in my area.

The "NEW" Havoline reaching the stores (as stated earlier) may be a "re-labeled" Chevron Supreme product. The data sheets for both Chevron Supreme and the "latest" Havoline synthetic 5w-40 read absolutely identically ---number for number. Of at least equal interest are the respective Material Safety Data Sheets (MSDS). The sheets read identically except for identifying names and catalog numbers.

Bottom Line I'm still holding out (and holding my nose) on giving an opinion regarding Havoline until they figure out who is manufacturing and blending, and I see the final spec sheet and MSDS.

Who knows --- by the time you read this they might have changed again.
__________________________________________________

To add to my above comment I posted:

"Up until just a few years ago, you knew who you were dealing with, --- now you have no idea at all." Maybe this addition helps:

TEXACO was "Texaco" until they murged with Shell to form Equilon. Shell sold the Texaco fuels division to Chevron but kept all the lubricant formulas and divisions. If you see Havoline with Equilon on the bottle, it is made by Shell. If you see Havoline with Chevron/Texaco on the bottle, it is made by Chevron. I believe Shell has the right to make Havoline for the next nine (9) months. What brand or name will it be a year from now? Your guess is as good as mine.

Shell kept the formulas for all Texaco lubricants. They are producing the industrial oils but they are using the Shell name. They are only using the Texaco name on the Havoline products.

AMOCO fuels was purchaed by BP and the lubricants division of AMOCO was purchaed by Chevron and BP/AMOCO purchaed Castrol Lubricants.

Pennzoil purchased Quaker State which is soon to be purchased by Shell.

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I have also spoken with a Chevron Technician via their website and asked them if the Chevron Supreme is a 100% FULL Synthetic and if their Havoline counterpart was PAO or Group III base. Due to the confusion on the spec sheet (read below) I picked up the phone. I confirmed via telephone that Chevron/Texaco is a group III and they have no immediate plans for a 100% PAO oil. The confusion in their spec sheet states that they use 55% PAO and a 15% ester, and some Group III (hydorcracked) --- and they use the funny use of the word "or", as in stating that at any givin time they can use MORE Group III base and LESS PAO.

Bottom Line --- The response was (except for the arctic grade 0w-30 oil --- ALL of the Chevron synthetic oils are Group III based (hydrocracked dino) oils, and not Group IV / Group V Full Synthetics. Therefore the "NEW" Havoline 5w-40 is a hydrocracked dino oil.
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FAQ's regarding the use of Synthetic Oils

1) Can AMSOIL Motor Oils be used in any engine?

Answer. Certainly, AMSOIL Motor Oils may be used in any mechanically sound gasoline or diesel fueled engine. Basically, that means they are excellent for use in any vehicle’s engine.

2) Will AMSOIL Motor Oils void the warranty of a new vehicle?

Answer. Absolutely not! Manufacturers’ warranties are based upon the use of oils meeting specific API Service Classifications, for example, SJ/CF. (AMSOIL lubricants meet the current API Service requirements and, thus, are perfectly suited for use in any new vehicle without affecting the validity of the new vehicle warranty.)

4)What are the recommendations about using synthetic oils in a new engine? Everyone that I've spoken to has said that synthetic oils won't allow the engine to break in properly. The rings can't 'seat'. Do you have any findings in this area?

Answer. Regarding the use of AMSOIL synthetic motor oils in brand new or rebuilt engines, it is recommended to operate the engine up to its first normal drain interval with a petroleum motor oil. There are a couple primary reasons for this recommendation.

(a) New engines or engine components generate high wear metals to begin with and generally contain debris from machining and assembly. It is more beneficial to allow these wear metals to collect in an inexpensive motor oil than to circulate throughout the crankcase for extended periods in a synthetic motor oil. By operating the vehicle to its first drain interval with a petroleum oil, these wear metals and manufacturing debris collect in the oil and are then flushed out of the crankcase when drained. This allows for a much cleaner operating environment for the synthetic lubricant.

(b) Within the first miles of operation any defects in the assembly or workmanship of the engine components may be corrected before installing the more expensive synthetic motor oil. Occasionally, rebuilt engines may have re-machined components or materials which can sometimes be mismatched. These problems will develop in a fairly short period of time. If excessive oil consumption or any other problem is noted, this should be corrected prior to changing to AMSOIL synthetic Oil.

5) I sometimes hear "Synthetic oils contain detergents that can make the oil seals leak in older cars." Is this really an issue? How old would a car have to be to not use synthetics?

Answer. Synthetic lubricants do have an inherent detergency that cleans and removes conventional motor oil deposits left over in an engine. However, motor oils are designed to help swell seals slightly to prevent leakage. The only time you would observe seal leakage is if the seals are already damaged or showing signs of leakage around them. As long as the vehicle has been well maintained, and in good mechanical condition, it can be switched to a synthetic lubricant at any mileage.

3) How do AMSOIL products compare with other synthetic lubricants?

Answer. We feel these are two areas that can be compared that will affect the performance of the products in a way that can be explained to consumers. Most synthetics have similarly good typical specs, but the performance from better additives, more shear stable VI, higher TBN, etc, can not be easily demonstrated with a test or a chart. These attributes of AMSOIL show up by controlling acids in the oil, eliminating corrosion in the engine, maintaining viscosity throughout the drain interval helping improve performance in the areas of fuel economy and cold weather starting, keeping contaminants in suspension until they get to the oil filter for removal or the oil is drained, and generally keeping the engine cleaner and deposit free. These benefits are not easily demonstrated with a test or a chart. They are only noticeable in actual use. As we find areas where comparisons can be made to demonstrate differences between AMSOIL and other synthetics, we will do them. In the meantime, it is testimonials from dealers like yourself and customers that provide the best credible evidence that our products are formulated to perform.
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To Request a FREE Amsoil Catalog, click the following link and once you arrive at my Amsoil Website you can request a FREE Catalog.
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I think this should answer your questions. Thank You.







Steven Roark , Amsoil Dealer , Proud Sponsor of www.DodgeDakotas.com

AMSOIL Synthetic Motor Oils, Lubricants, Filtration, and Truck Care Products



Ed
Dodge Dakota
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11/24/2003
18:10:53

RE: Hey AmsoilSponsor
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Hydrocracked "Pretend" Synthetic: So what is Mobil 1 supersync, I sure as hell pay enough for it, it ought to be full synthetic, if it is not I'll switch. One more question, "hydrocracked" that word inherently implies water to me, do you know what additives they use? What's this group thing mean? Thanks for the help!!



GB2000
Dodge Dakota
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11/24/2003
19:08:17

RE: Hey AmsoilSponsor
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I think Mobil 1 is just cheap fully synthetic oil... At least from what I read when I was researching it it said it was full synthetic. I know I paid plenty for mine too...so it better'd be fully synthetic...lol

Josh



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