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Shkhzrd
Dodge Dakota
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7/27/2003
03:29:22
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 Subject: V8 timing gear on a V6
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Has anyone else ever tried to put a MOPAR A-engine double roller timing chain on a Magnum V-6? I just built a new 3.9 and used one. The engine runs but poorly and I have a lot of valvetrain noise. The valvetrain is getting plenty of oil. Geometry seemed ok during the build but now I strongly suspect my valves are hitting the KB pistons. Does anyone else have any experience with this? Did I make a mistake in installing the timing chain on the V-6 the same way as it would go on a V-8?
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FazDak
GenII
7/27/2003
12:08:40
|  RE: V8 timing gear on a V6
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Sounds like you have other problems than the timing chain and gears. If your chain is on so wrong so as to make timing off bad enough for the valves to hit the pistons the engine wouldnt run..
What rockers do you have and what cam? Did you torque the rockers and set the lash properly? If not that can make alot of noise.
If you have a custom cam and 1.7's then yes you may have a valve to piston clearence issue. Anytime you use a custom cam it is reccomended to clearence the valve to pistons to be safe.
Just so you know....v8 and 6 chain& gears sets from MP are one in the same.
Hopefully you didnt set em up 4 degree off.
Good luck
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dcxer
Dodge Dakota
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7/27/2003
12:58:01
| RE: V8 timing gear on a V6
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The chain and gears sets 3.9L-5.9L are the same and install in the same way.The 3.9L& 5.2L are NOT freewheeling engines.When installing the rockers you must line up the mark (says v-6 on the 3.9L and v-8 on the 5.2L's) to the 0 timing mark on the front cover.Failure to do so will allow the valves to hit the pistons during assembly.(bending them)(see service manual).The roller chain sets are noisier than the stock chain and gears.Any use of 1.7 rockers will make the failure to use the above procedure even more important.Did you turn the engine over with the chain disconnected? Make sure that all the pushrods are still in the rocker arms cups.Check the pushrods to be sure you didn't bend one.Sounds like a couple may have jumped out on you.If you have an adjustable valve train then you need to set the lash (.020 to .040 at the base of the lobe,otherwise it is a torque to spec setting.
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shkhzrd
Dodge Dakota
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7/27/2003
14:09:49
| RE: V8 timing gear on a V6
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Well, the cam is stock but the rocker arms are Crower 1.7 ratio rollers. I installed the MOPAR double roller chain "straight up" according to the marks on the gears. I was a little nervous about it but could find no information anywhere on the gears or otherwise to indicate a different setting for the V-6. I set preload at 1/2 a turn initially. I did not "clearance" the engine first. I got cocky. I think that may have been my undoing. Are there supposed to be different marks on the gears for installation on a 3.9?
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J and J Auto
Dodge Dakota
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7/27/2003
14:25:27
| RE: V8 timing gear on a V6
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Get your money back for the chain, As I have found
out after Bernd also told me there are mopar
sprokets that are off by over 6 degrees.
Yes Bernd and I used to corraspond a lot through
email before all his trouble started, right now
that man has enough probs to deal with.
Get the Cloyes its all we use these days after
getting one of the bad mopar sprokets on a 360
build.
I am also running a set of KB pistons custom
made, you need to check the clearance with
some white lead or clay.
Larry
J&J Auto
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J and J Auto
Dodge Dakota
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7/27/2003
14:31:15
| RE: V8 timing gear on a V6
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On the rocker adjustment.
The roller lifters in these motors need at least
a .050 .060 preload, I have been installing the
crower rollers with 3/4 turn just after the
push rod starts to turn snugly with your fingers
and it works well.
You need enough preload or the will rattle like a
mother
Larry
J&J Auto
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J and J Auto
Dodge Dakota
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7/27/2003
14:34:21
| RE: V8 timing gear on a V6
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Forgot,
You also need to be sure your piston on the cyl
you are working on is at TDC,
However if your chain and gears were off you may
have adjusted the rockers while the lfters were
starting up the lobes and than they would all
be to lose.
Hope that helps
Larry
J&J Auto
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shkhzrd
Dodge Dakota
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7/27/2003
15:27:11
| RE: V8 timing gear on a V6
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I'm using KB +.030 pistons I got from Hughes Engines. They have huge valve reliefs whick makes me wonder if I could actually be hitting pistons and have the engine still run. I readjusted the preload with each valve on its respective base circle (using the old cam for reference)to 3/4 of a turn and still got noise. Sounds like the lifters are not pumping up. I have oil pressure to spare. The evidence is all over my engine bay and driveway. All of my experience is with earlier Chevy and Ford V-8s. I have set hydraulic preload and mechanical lash before on those with no problem. This is my first Chrysler and the first time I have done it 5 times and still had noise. I'm really worried about that MOPAR timing set. I'm going to try once again and if it doesn't go away I'm tearing off that front cover and verifying the cam timing. Even if I have to rework the heads again I'm not running an engine with bent valves.
Thanks to all for the advice. It is very much appreciated.
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dcxer
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
7/28/2003
03:29:06
| RE: V8 timing gear on a V6
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To clarify my earlier post,I meant you must line up the V-6 mark on the Damper with the front cover marks when installing the rockers.I didn't mean to say the valves were hitting the pistons while running,only that they will hit while installing the rockers if the marks are not lined up.However if your pistons have valve reliefs that may not even be an issue.(eg 5.9L which has a has recessed dome so the interference problem is not a problem).A few other areas to check.The KB pistons have a quench done and that could be interfering with the cyl head. (diff thinner head gasket?).I agree that the MP roller set can be a bit sloppy so I would recommend checking the cam centerline to eliminate any timing error there.If there is an error there it is easy to correct with the offset bushings for the cam gear that MP sells.Also do a leak down check now before you proceed.If the diff pressures are ok you can eliminate the valves as a problem (being bent).That may save you a great deal of wrenching and time.One other thing.Were the lifters removed from the block? They must be installed with the oil holes facing each other or towards the center of the engine.Otherwise there are issues with foaming in the oil and a loss of lifter function.
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J and J Auto
Dodge Dakota
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7/28/2003
09:12:31
| RE: V8 timing gear on a V6
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When you check the chain just put your stock gears
on cam and crank, line up the marks and do not
rotate the cam or crank, now drop the mopar roller
gears on and the marks should line up, if they
don't you got one of there famous bad gears.
On the pistons from Hughes they should be ok they
are already specd out for you and the valves will
clear.
On the rockers if you are using an after market
cam unless it was custom ground you can not use
the 1.7 rockers to much lift and the valves could
be hitting.
Let us know what you find but when you mentiond a
cam using the 1.7's you scared me!!
Larry
J&J Auto
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shkhzrd
Dodge Dakota
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7/28/2003
12:49:19
| RE: V8 timing gear on a V6
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I haven't had a chance to dig into it yet but as soon as I do I'm going to compare stock parts markings/position to the Mopar roller gear markings/position just for Piece of Mind. Yes Piece (I loved that album). The Cam I used is SUPPOSED to be a stock replacement Cam made by Melling. The lifters are new MP rollers and had a yellow mark on one side. I was told by the parts guy at Palmer Dodge that these need to be installed "yellow side up" which I did. I remember that put the oil holes facing the center of the engine during install. The Head gaskets are Fel-Pro. The valves, springs, retainers, locks and seals are all MP parts. I have also noticed that the alignment washers on the Crower rocker arms are hitting retainers on 3 valves. Swapped rockers to other valves and clearance is OK. Looks like MP might have some real QC issues. All of a sudden I'm questioning my entire rebuild. I skipped double checking some clearances due to time constraints and now I'm feeling the pain. I won't make that mistake again.
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n5xmt
Dodge Dakota
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12/26/2003
12:23:23
| RE: V8 timing gear on a V6
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Your tick could be that all the roller tappets are in upside down... the oil holes are supposed to face away from the crank, and the paint mark should face into the lifter valley...
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hater
Dodge Dakota
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12/26/2003
15:37:36
| RE: V8 timing gear on a V6
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Thats what he said moron, he has them lined up that way. This post is 5 months old, I'm sure he fixed it by now.
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n5xmt
Dodge Dakota
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12/26/2003
21:03:14
| RE: V8 timing gear on a V6
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Ooohhh...
Gee... Maybe you should put your mommas legs back together and get some of the anger out...
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shkhzrd
Dodge Dakota
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12/28/2003
20:52:49
| RE: V8 timing gear on a V6
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Yep. It's fixed. It's not a V-8/V-6 thing. It's a pre-magnum/Magnum thing. I didn't have the old timing gearset available for reference when I put it together. Unfortunately the package did not contain any reference material pertaining to why there are two complete sets of timing marks on the crank gear so I ended went with what I had always done when building Chevy and Ford V-8's with no problem. I found out the hard way that is the wrong way to go. The \Magnum keyway is offset 45 degrees clockwise from the pre-magnum position and there is a tiny corresponding mark in that position. THAT is the one to use. Case closed.
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shkhzrd
Dodge Dakota
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12/28/2003
20:58:17
| RE: V8 timing gear on a V6
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Ohhhh the "tick". Yep, n5xmt is right. That IS what was causing the problem. The # 3 intake lifter was upside down, paint mark facing away from the lifter valley. I didn't believe it had anything to do with the problem until I fired the engine back up after correcting it and no more tick. I'm still not sure about the dynamics involved there. But the engine is happy now. Case closed and sealed.
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