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wadak
GenIII
10/12/2008
00:03:25
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 Subject: Ethanol
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To all,
What has been your experience using gas with Ethanol? I recently notced that Chevron here, has started using a 10 percent mixture in Washington. I know in the midwest Ethanol is used quite a bit. While my truck will run fairly will on it. I take a 10 to 15 percent hit on gas mileage.
Share your experiences here.
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daddio
Dodge Dakota
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10/12/2008
11:16:13
| RE: Ethanol
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i haven't noticed a drop in mileage but the blend does eliminate the ping i had under hard acceleration.
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Tyler
Dodge Dakota
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10/12/2008
11:31:19
| RE: Ethanol
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I live in Iowa and theres 5 ethanol plants within a 50 mile radius. We also run E10 here I would have to say fuel runs alot cheaper because of it. Filled up with E10 89 oct today at 2.59$ regular dino juice was 2.70$. I do notice a 1 mpg drop averaged out though. I havent really done the math to figure out whats cheaper but Id rather support my local economy then someone overseas that dont like us.
A few things though...
I would not store a vehicle long term with ethanol or use it in older vehicles. Also I wouldnt suggest using it in marine applications as it tends to attract moisture.
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intensedak39
*GenIII*
10/12/2008
11:32:13
| RE: Ethanol
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it's been around here in texas for a couple years now. i hate every bit of it. when they started introducing it, only certain stations had it, so i avoided those. now everybody has it. it was my understanding that all gasoline now has to contain at least 10%.
i've experienced less mileage on my pt and performance seems to have suffered.
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here in RI
Dodge Dakota
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10/12/2008
13:39:50
| RE: Ethanol
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Stations in Rhode Island have been using a form of this for several years in the winter months to reduce emissions. A couple ago they switched to it all year. Some cars are not affected by it. I see a very slight decrease in the mpg with my Dakota, my wife's Malibu was not affected by the change at all.
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wadak
GenIII
10/12/2008
15:59:49
| RE: Ethanol
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Thanks for the reponses, I was wondering if I was the only one taking a hit on mileage. Oregon State legislature mandated that all gas in Oregon would use a 10 percent ethanol mixture. The legislature there is considering repealing the mandate; 1. complainants about lower gas mileage--toyota prius mileage drops of 50 to 40 mpg. 2. Using Ethanol in a 2 cycle engine even with adequate 2 cycle lubricant will ruin the engine. I am encourging every one to share this information.
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intensedak39
*GenIII*
10/12/2008
17:27:52
| RE: Ethanol
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think about the people using E85 fuel. sure it costs about a dollar less per gallon than regular, but at the cost of 40% of your gas mileage.
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Tyler
Dodge Dakota
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10/12/2008
17:52:29
| RE: Ethanol
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Ive used e10 91 oct in my ice auger 100:1 for almost 10 years. No problems starts first crank in -25 degree temps. The issue is storage with ethanol ADD a stabilizer if you store your stuff over the winter.
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J and J Auto
GenII
10/14/2008
00:51:35
| RE: Ethanol
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They have had it up here in northern wisconsin for
years now and as intense I avoid it there are 2
stations up here that have the good stuff
The 1 station even advertises it right on there
big sign alcohal free also raises hell in the
2 stroke motors, they run hot from it
The alcohal gas they say more power but less
mileage I think it hits both in my opinion
I don't use it in any of my vehicles if I can
avoid it but when you go on a trip usualy you
have no choice but to use it
Years ago we did some alcohal conversions on the
carbed motors it would run fine but you needed
to open the jets about 30 to 40% and it would
destroy all the rubber componants in the system
in just a few months eating hoses and many leaks
now the new hoses they have out now will handle it
To me it was a waist of time, I would say the
whole motor would have to be designed to run
alcohal
Larry
J&J Auto
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ConcertBb
Dodge Dakota
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10/14/2008
10:01:43
| RE: Ethanol
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Ethanol is a net loss in energy. It requires more fuel to make than it yields. Until they use something besides corn it will not help the oil problem.
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Ummm
Dodge Dakota
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10/14/2008
22:39:40
| RE: Ethanol
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"It requires more fuel to make than it yields."
,don't think so. That's an internet fairy tale.
-----------------------
Larry, you are right about getting less mileage and less power but you don't have to sacrifice power, however, you do have to re tune to take advantage of alcohol's naturally higher octane. You should be able to regain the lost power with no more than simply advancing the spark. Race cars have been taking advantage of it for many years.
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wadak
GenIII
10/14/2008
23:19:50
| RE: Ethanol
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Ummm,
If there is anybody who should know how to tune a vehicle to take advantage of the ethanol it would be Larry. My personal experience is no loss of power with a 10 percent ethanol mixture, it's a loss of gas mileage. As I understand it the ethanol increases the surface tension of the gasoline making it harder to vaporize. Along with that is also has less energy.
Consumer Reports had an article on a Chevy Tahoe-flex fuel vehicle using E85 fuel. CR test gas mileage, emmissions and acceleration. The results slightly better acceleration, emissions about the same, 30 plus percent worse gas mileage. I see no advantage to ethanol other than subsidizing farming and raining the cost a product use to feed cattle and people whenother forms of biomass materials could be used to develop ethanol. That's my 10 cents worth (with inflation and the goverment bailing out the banking industry it ain't 2 cent worth anymore), take it for what it's worth.
wadak
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ConcertBb
Dodge Dakota
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10/15/2008
11:37:51
| RE: Ethanol
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Ummm,
Perhaps you would like to discuss ethanol with a Cornell University prof? Ethanol is a loser.
http://healthandenergy.com/ethanol.htm
http://www.grist.org/news/maindish/2006/12/08/philpott/
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Ummm
Dodge Dakota
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10/15/2008
20:29:59
| RE: Ethanol
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wadak, if Larry knows so much he wouldn't have tried to convert a vehicle to run on ethanol without changing all the components that deteriorate. I'm sure he is capable of figuring it out. You don't seem to agree with him on the point of power loose.
Flex fuel vehicles can vary tuning to take advantage of whatever fuel it is burning. Most of the time you are going to be trading a loose of fuel mileage for more power.
Ideally you would also be trading the lose in fuel mileage for a reduction in fuel cost.
ConcertBb, I'm sure I could counter your professor with two other that would say just the opposite. Such arguments are totally worthless.
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dakota49
Gen I
10/15/2008
20:42:54
| RE: Ethanol
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If I remember correctly, it does take about 3/4 of fuel to make 1 gallon of ethonal so while you may get a tad bit more fuel for the fuel used, it doesn't make much sense to use it. I think the big reason some companies are making it is because the government is subsidiszing it.
Just my 2cents worth
Dakota49
dakota49
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jerry
Dodge Dakota
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10/15/2008
20:46:20
| RE: Ethanol
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i have a 92 dakota and i put the new e3 spark plugs and a set of factory wires then when i replaced the belt i started getting 19.7mpg using the 10% ethanol gas i think that its not the gas but the spark that has made the boost in mpg i was getting 17.4 when i bought the truck a year ago and have the plugs in for about 5 months now it seems to burn the fuel better but the draw back is that they run $5 a plug so good luck
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wadak
GenIII
10/15/2008
23:40:39
| RE: Ethanol
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Ummm,
Larry indicated that he the convertions were carbed engines not fuel injected and it would very difficult to prevent the deterioration of some carbed components. As I indicated my personal experience was no perceived loss of power but a gas mileage reduction. I agree with Larry on the use of ethanol-a waste of time and money.
wadak
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modain
GenIII
10/16/2008
13:00:46
|  RE: Ethanol
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What is missing so far in this discussion of gasoline vs. ethanol is this little fact: gas runs best at 14:1 A/F ratio whereas alcohol runs best at 8:1 A/F ratio. ECMs that can't distinguish what fuel it's running won't produce any power benefits that alcohol can provide.
There is plenty of info to be found describing why alcohol makes an excellent racing fuel: richer mixtures, lower heat output, higher anti-knock properties, etc.
/ramble on/
If an alcohol fuel (of any blend content) is run through an engine with an ECM calibrated for gasoline it will always produce less power on alcohol. That is because it is not burning enough fuel for optimum power output. The O2 sensors will be looking for exhaust gas properties that reflect the proper oxygen content based on gasoline combustion. The alcohol exhaust results will not satisfy that spec because there will most likely be more free oxygen left. The ECM might interpret this as a lean condition and try to compensate by richening the mixture, but the correct A/F value might be outside of its operating specs.
If programmed correctly (like a flex-fuel ECM) the engine can produce more power running alcohol because it can pack more fuel per cylinder charge than it can with gasoline. But then, since it is introducing more fuel it won't go as far per gallon...
So I ask, "how is this a viable solution?"
/ramble off/
What's your left foot doing?
==============
2002 Graphite QC SLT Plus, 4.7L, NV3500, Superchips 3715, 3.92 LSD, R/T rear swaybar, no chrome, loads o'fun...
2001 Patriot Blue Durango SLT, 4.7L, 45RFE, Superchips 3715, 3.55 Open (for now)
1999 Forest Green Dakota RC Sport, 2.5L, NV1500, 3.55 Open
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wadak
GenIII
10/16/2008
19:27:20
| RE: Ethanol
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modain,
Thanks for the insightful information, frankly I had never really thought about the air-to-fuel ratio.
wadak
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Ummm
Dodge Dakota
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10/16/2008
19:51:03
| RE: Ethanol
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"So I ask, "how is this a viable solution?""
Eventually it will be cheaper to produce and you will NEVER run out raw material. Unlike oil it is an infinitely renewable resource.
"If I remember correctly, it does take about 3/4 of fuel to make 1 gallon of ethanol so while you may get a tad bit more fuel for the fuel used,"
I still think that you are way off. Did you ever wonder how much fuel it takes to produce one gallon of gasoline? Maybe it takes more.
Frankly I think such claims are internet BS.
"Larry indicated that he the convertions were carbed engines not fuel injected"
You encounter similar problems with fuel injected engines.
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jerry
Dodge Dakota
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10/16/2008
20:00:32
|  RE: Ethanol
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has anyone tried to run oxygen to a engine and if so is it legal would that have a effect with the ethanol like propane does with diesel???
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