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91DakotaFreak
Dodge Dakota
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2/23/2003
15:36:47
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 Subject: Oil?????
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OK I have dug through alot of old postson this site about synthetic vs dino oil and none have been able to answer my questions. Maybe you guys will be able to help.
I have been using dino oil since i got my truck last june i am the 2nd owner its a 91 with the TBI 318 with 99700 and i am getting for the 100,000 oil chage. I also try to change the oil and filter every 3000 like the previous owner. Also I would like to run it at the track ocasionally.
1) Is it bad to go from a dino oil to a synthetic?
2) What synthetic is better?
3) What synthetic it the best deal?
4) Is it true that you will pick up a few extra hp as well as get better mpg?
5) Does the butt dyno notice a difference?
6) If i use synthetic this oil change is it bad if I go back to the dino oil?
7) Does it were worse or better on the engine?
8) Anything else I should know?
Thanks!!!
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gcsupraman
Dodge Dakota
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2/23/2003
17:21:19
|  RE: Oil?????
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Message:
1 no
2 AMS oil
3 its not like one is a rip off and another is a steal. They will all be better than regular oil...but I use AMS oil.
4 its possible - every engine is different
5 probably not
6 no - but why would you?
7 better
8 no
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handi2
GenIII
2/23/2003
22:23:50
| RE: Oil?????
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Its got 100k miles already. Stay with the same oil and change at 3000.
2002 Quad Cab SLT Plus 4.7 Every Available Option
Bed Rug/Access Tonnoue Cover/Roadmaster Suspension/HO Cams
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91DakotaFreak
Dodge Dakota
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2/24/2003
10:14:38
| RE: Oil?????
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why stay with the oil i am already using instead of going to a synthetic?
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sandman
Dodge Dakota
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2/24/2003
12:39:20
|  RE: Oil?????
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Basicly the point of synthetics is to prevent what has already happened inside of your engine. Most of the detrimental wear that you would hope to prevent has already happened in your engine after 100,000 miles of regular oil usage! It would be like starting an exercise program at the age of 90 years old. While it will not hurt any you are not going to see the same quality of life and life extension you would if you started an exercise program at 20 or 30 or even 40 years of age.I gurantee that you engine is dirty inside and already has carbo and varnish issues and the bearing are already enbedded with carbon particles. So while synthetic will slow this trend down most of the dammage that acclerates the premature wear out of the engine has already occured. So I guess what I am trying to say is that with the amount of millage you have on your truck the added cost of synthetic is not going to benifitt you very much! Notice I did not say that it would not benifitt you. It will still help to reduce wear, lower operateing cost, extend oil drains.....
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gcsupraman
Dodge Dakota
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2/24/2003
15:45:26
| RE: Oil?????
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FYI sythetic oil has cleansing properties . . .
why try to save a few bucks...buy the ams oil - change the oil/filter every 6 months and you may even get a small mpg increase as well as 1 or 2 hp.
When you really do the numbers synthetic doesn't cost any more.
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91DakotaFreak
Dodge Dakota
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2/24/2003
19:56:31
| RE: Oil?????
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chouldnt yo still change your oil every 3000 even if its synthetic??
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Larry L
Dodge Dakota
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2/24/2003
22:23:49
| RE: Oil?????
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The only time you will ever need synthetic oil is if your truck is being used in high stress conditions. Extremely low temp startups, trailer towing in heat, racing,etc. The average engine will never NEED synthetics. Changing to a synthetic now will most likely result in seal failure. It doesn't "clean" any better. Your seals have been in dino oil for awhile and one of the pluses is that the dino keeps the seals supple and has a slight swelling effect on them. Synthetics are mainly PAO's and they do nothing for the seals. Most synthetics also have esters added to swell the seals but usually in amounts that are beneficial to newer engines. If you make short trips, you definitely don't want synthetics as they do not have the "cling" of dino. The best dino that I am aware of is Chevron Supreme. It is a group III base stock which is commonly refered as a semi-synthetic. It's available at Walmart for $1.08. If you like moly technology then I would suggest Castrol GTX. But for your truck-skip the synthetics.
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sandman
Dodge Dakota
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2/24/2003
22:37:05
| RE: Oil?????
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gcsupraman, Synthetic is not going to clean out a heavily varnished and carboned up engine!!! It sure as heck is not going to remove carbon and other debris from the bearings!! It will will help but synthetics are not like slovents. If synthetics had that type of cleaning action then oil galley blockages would be a daily occurane when someone switched to synthetics because bigh chenks of sludge would be able to break free possable causeing a blockage of anoil galley and this does not happen. IT would proably take 30,000 miles of useing syntheics to clean out an engine ran for 100,000 miles worth of dino oil. Synthetic is not going to replace all of the wear damage caused by metal to metal contact that has happen over the last 100,000 miles that would not have happend with synthetics and it is not going to revitialize the hardened and cracked seals that are pluged up with wax and varnish right know.These are the reason I said it will help but is not worth the expensens. His margin of return is going to be deminished. Synthetics are great but last time I checked engines were not self healing once the damage is done that is it!! The idea behind synthetic is to prevent the damage in the first place. Realisticly for the best return on your investment synthetics should be in your engine no later then 30,000-50,000 miles. After this time frame it is questionable how much service life extension you are going to see. You will always see improvment with synthetic but if the improvement is not staticly significant then your are wasteing money! Better to wate until rebuild and start it out right after your 500-5000 mile break in! THen with bypass filtration and tri guard filter system watch the engine go 300,000-500,000 miles no problem!
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91DakotaFreak
Dodge Dakota
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2/24/2003
22:48:36
| RE: Oil?????
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Another reason why i asked about synthetics is because i would like to start bracket racing this summer
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HSKR
Dodge Dakota
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2/24/2003
23:42:38
| RE: Oil?????
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I say unless you are going to rebuild the engine, keep using a good quality dino oil. I recomend Castrol GTX or Valvoline.
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Larry L
Dodge Dakota
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2/24/2003
23:54:43
| RE: Oil?????
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Avoid the Valvoline All Climate. In virgin oil analysis it ranks BELOW Walmarts Supertech which you can buy for $.84. Their Durablend and Premium Blue is decent. As a side note, if you are using Fram for your oil filter, but the Walmart filter. It's made by Champion and rates better.
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gcsupraman
Dodge Dakota
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2/25/2003
09:04:22
| RE: Oil?????
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"gcsupraman, Synthetic is not going to clean out a heavily varnished and carboned up engine!!! It sure as heck is not going to remove carbon and other debris from the bearings!!"
I wasn't trying to imply that it will flush out and clean his engine - I was just stating that synthetic oil has cleansing properties - just like you said "It will will help".
"Synthetic is not going to replace all of the wear damage caused by metal to metal contact that has happened over the last 100,000 miles that would not have happend with synthetics and it is not going to revitialize the hardened and cracked seals that are pluged up with wax and varnish right know."
Of course not - but it will slow down future wear.
"These are the reason I said it will help but is not worth the expensens."
Lets figure that out.
Lets assume that I drive 25,000 miles a year (because I do)
If I were to change the oil myself I would pay about $1.00 a quart for dino oil and lets say $5.00 for the filter. ($10.00 total cost per oil change) Let us also assume that I change my oil every 3500 miles. That would be 7 oil changes in a 1 year period at $10.00 each = $70.00 per year.
If i was running AMS oil I would have to buy 5 quarts of oil at $6.00 a bottle and two oil filter because they have to be changed every 6 months. And I will need another quart of oil when I change the filter. So in a 1 year period I buy 6 quarts - screw it lets just say 7 quarts of oil @ $6.00 each = $42 + $20.00 for two filters = $62.00.
No only (for me) is the synthetic oil cheaper, but I only have to change the oil once, and the filter once in a years period. Plus I will probably get better gas milage and less wear.
As far as this thread is concerned there would be no disadvantage in buying the synthetic oil - in fact - it could be cheaper depending on how many miles a year you drive.
When somebody says "synthetic oil isn't worth it at this point" I would have to disagree. Yes - it won't have the same benefit now that the truck has 100k miles on it but in MY opinion slowing down future engine wear, better gas milage, longer change intervals and saving money as I have just shown above is worth it!
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Larry L
Dodge Dakota
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2/25/2003
14:23:51
| RE: Oil?????
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Message:
Well gcsupraman, lets take a much more technical look at your Amsoil and the extended oil changes you prefer. Here is an oil analysis of Amsoil 0w-30 used in a Chevy V6 for 14520 miles. An Amzoil oil filter is used and Amsoil air filter is also used. Only items with values are listed otherwise values are zero.
Alum. 9
Chromium 2
Iron 137 can you read -engine parts?
Copper 137
Lead 33 read bearing parts
Tin 14 10 should be max
Moly 16
Nickel 2
Mang. 9
Boron 13
Silicone 86
Sodium 22
Calcium 2570
Magnesium 346
Phos. 897
Zinc 1314
VIS@ 210 83.2
Flashpoint 430
TBN 3.5
Don't look good to me. A TBN of 4.0 is considered minimum which means there is very little value left. The oil at VIS is now a 40 weight because of oxidation. Iron levels are off the scales as well as lead.
For a comparison, here is an analysis on Chevron Supreme 10w-30, a dino group III, in a high stressed Nissan 4 cyl. Miles on oil 4032, all Nissan filters.
Alum 2
Iron 4
Copper 3
Lead 1
Moly 7
Potassium 18
Boron 3
Silicon 7
Sodium 9
Calcium 1714
Phos. 783
Zinc 868
TBN 5.0
VIS@ 210 57.8
Now do you still want to change your oil every 25,000 miles or do you want your vehicle to last?
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gcsupraman
Dodge Dakota
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2/25/2003
14:53:50
| RE: Oil?????
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Larry,
You have compared a 6 cyl american motor with 14,500 miles on the oil with a nissan 4 cylinder motor with 4,000 miles on the oil. Unknown engine mileage on either. Not to take anything away from your statistics (as you seem to be a very knowledable person) but the only constant between them is that they are two engines with oil in them. If the chevy motor has 150k miles on it I would assmue a larger amount of material in the oil - as I would also assume that a 6 cylinder motor would produce more material than a 4.
This is a wonderfull thread - very informative.
Lets say the AMS oil was changed every 12,500 miles (2x a year). Total cost per year of 10 quarts of oil x 6.00 each = $60 + $20 in filters = $80. So over a year period thats only $10 more.
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Texas Todd
Dodge Dakota
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2/25/2003
15:24:07
| RE: Oil?????
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If your engine only holds 5 quarts! I remember when the 4.7's came out, and people didn't read the owners manual, and were later finding out that it takes 6 qts.
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Larry L
Dodge Dakota
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2/25/2003
15:53:23
| RE: Oil?????
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The Chevy mileage was 20,000 and the Nissan was 46,000. The Amsoil is not holding up to claims that they are making. Maybe this is why they are under federal investigation for fraud. I have seen virgin samples of their products and although there will always be variations from lot to lot, they have TBN's from from 17.0 to 7.0 for the same product. That doesn't seem to be very consistant to me. And the sad part is that many folks rely on the product to be TOP shelf but that is not always the case. Also, Mobil has a tech bulletin out concerning extended oil changes and Mobil One. Their recommendation is to follow the manufacturers recommendations on oil change intervals- no more extended changes. The comparison of the two samples are between a dino based oil and synthetic. Sorry this came across as confrontational, it was meant as informative.
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gcsupraman
Dodge Dakota
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2/25/2003
19:25:32
| RE: Oil?????
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Wow - very interesting.
Do you test the oil yourself? - I would be interesting in sending you some samples. My truck is a 2002 4.7 QC
I have about 13,000 miles on the truck now and am waiting till 15,000 to switch to AMS oil (that I have already purchased) I could send you a sample of the valvoline 5w30 oil with 3500 miles on it and then send you another sample of AMS 5w30 oil with about 12,000 miles on it (6 mos later)
What do you think - at least that will give us better test.
Greg
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gcsupraman
Dodge Dakota
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2/25/2003
19:28:06
| RE: Oil?????
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Todd,
oops, 6 quarts :-)
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Larry L
Dodge Dakota
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2/25/2003
20:25:39
| RE: Oil?????
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I cannot accept any samples for testing as the datbase is designed around research and not general analysis. I would suggest that you try Blackstone and they also have a free test available but it only gives a metals analysis and not the VIS rating or TBN. They will add that to the report for an additional charge. My personal, I think it's worth it. Be aware that Amsoil will come out about 5% high in VIS than actual from Blackstone for some unknown reason. The link to Blackstone, which is available to everyone, is www.blackstone-labs.com/free_test_kit.html Hope this helps. Also , you may find this interesting as well. Oil filters and how they are rated for flow and micron efficiency. Link is www.kennedydiesel.com/engbull.html I think you will find that most manufacturers don't really want you to know this info as the Beta Ratio for a particular filter is hard to come by.
Later
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jeremiah2360
Dodge Dakota
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3/02/2003
17:56:38
|  RE: Oil?????
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Larry L i searched the web and found no test result on amsoil with that much iron etc... all results regardless of milage showed oil still good. just my .02.
03 qc 4.7 auto 4x4
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QC Dakota
Dodge Dakota
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3/04/2003
15:40:20
| RE: Oil?????
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So Larry where did u see or hear that Amsoil is under investigation. I looked for it and couldnt find any info on it
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jeremiah2360
Dodge Dakota
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3/04/2003
18:37:45
| RE: Oil?????
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The claim on the list that Amsoil is under investigation by the FTC is, as
far as I can tell, without merit. I track such things
(http://neptune.spacebears.com/cars/legal/index.html) and I haven't seen
anything against Amsoil.
http://oilstudy.spacebears.com
This guy Brian at above site is doing long term oil tests with mobil one,amsoil,red line,RP and maybe more. i cut and pasted his quote on the amsoil lawsuit above. i have not looked at it but believe him.
He is using an independent oil testing company(one not cozy with any oil makers)and should be interesting to follow.
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