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.alex.
Dodge Dakota
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12/16/2002
12:35:06
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 Subject: Leach Reflash Update Again
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Well, Dookie Balls on a stick..... After two weeks of driving with my newly reflashed Leach PCM, I went to the dyno again. To bring some new readers up to speed, I still had some degree of a limiter in place at 5500 rpm and to top that off, the air/fuel ratio was waaaay rich. As in 9.0:1 at 5000 rpm. That was my original Leach flash that I have been driving with since July.
I got the box re-flashed and just now got to the dyno. The results were interesting, and disappointing. We missed again on the air/fuel mix, as it now runs in the 11.xx:1 range all the way up to 3000 rpm, then dips to 10.0:1 all the way on up to 6000. It does now freely rev to 6000 rpm, so that's nice, but we are just shooting 20% more gas into the cylinders than we should be. I would like to see a WOT a/f ratio of 12.0:1 at the maximum. There is also a dead spot from 4200 to 5000 that is reflected in an actual DIP in the HP curve. I don't have the graph here with me to scan & post, but soon enough. Since the a/f reading was constant across that part, I think this is a timing issue.
Overall, I pulled 5 more horsepower out of the new flash. That's the best it's done out of 6 pulls. So we are now at 238 hp and 308 tq at the rear wheels. But the extra fuel is killing things. The dyno guy think that I am leaving 15-20 hp on the table because of my a/f ratio. I'd like to agree. So, now it's back to the drawing board. The last set of runs was actually monitored for a/f from the tailpipe sniffer. That means that the reading was from AFTER the catalytic converter and artificially lean. Which is ridiculous, because those readings were in the 8.9:1 range once we hit 5000 rpm. Ouch. If that's a falsely LEAN reading, then just how bad was it really??
This time, we actually plugged the O2 sensor from the monitoring kit into the exhaust bung and left my actual O2 sensor just hanging. It's useless at WOT anyhow. So these readings of 10.0:1 were from in front of the cat. And the ol' sniffer dont' lie.
The next step I'll take will be cheap and cause the least downtime: put the damn factory injectors back in place. I think the FMS 21# nozzles are just too much. If the old injectors will lean it out to 12.0:1 or even 11.5:1, then we are getting somewhere. I will still send the PCM back to Leach to get rid of the dead spot at 4200 rpm, but I will probably have to pay for this flash. And let's not forget the $200 in dyno runs that I've racked up. Grrrrrr......
On a lighter note, we did put the truck in 5th gear and run it up to 4600 before I chickened out looking at the Firestone tires. That little run showed a speed of 142 mph. That's with no wind resistance, but it's fun to know they'll turn that fast.
On a darker note, the cat is rattling pretty bad now. All the extra fuel is f-ing it up pretty hard........
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Canucker
Dodge Dakota
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12/16/2002
14:12:44
|  RE: Leach Reflash Update Again
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well things are better now ... but still not good eh ... that sucks dude.
I gotta agree with your dyno dude too, that you're leaving a good chunk of hp on the table in the upper RPMS.
The stock injectors probably will be better in this case... did you tell leach that you had the 21# ones?
I'd like to see the actual curve once you get it scanned. ... too bad about that dead spot. If it is a timing thing, Leach should fix it for free shouldn't they?? Is Tom starting to get PO'd at you yet! ha ha.
I dare suggest it, but if you got a Roe/Split-Second Fuel controller, you might be able to fix your problem. But that's just more money yet! Do the Roe's even work? I haven't looked into how they work.
If you port/polish your heads, that should help lean things out some too .. but that's a lot of down time.
after that, headers may help :)
I have an idea .. throw more $$$$ at it! that always seems to work! ha ha .. the money pit.
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.alex.
Dodge Dakota
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12/16/2002
14:37:51
| RE: Leach Reflash Update Again
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When i talk to Tom, I have to remind him who I am.... for a while he was convinced that I was driving a Grand Cherokee with the HO motor. Huh? No, dude, it's me. I don't think he remembers me enough to be pissed yet. We'll see.
I told him about the injectors. See, the tricky part here is that the Siemans 19# injectors from the factory flow at 23.8# when you flow them with 49 psi (factory fuel pressure on the Dakota). Well, the 21# FMS injectors flow the same thing. No loss, no gain. I called Marty right after they dyno run (he was on the couch watchin football) and he said.... "Try the factory injectors. The four hole design on the FMS 21# is just flowing too efficiently." Hows' that for a bee-atch? Wouldn't closed loop at WOT be the absolute shyte??
Gack! Alright. Okay. I'll slip em back in and try once more. But if they DO lean it out, I feel like I'll need the Bosch 19# (depending on what they flow) because Duner's already scared me into believing that the Sieman's injectors are junk anf they're just waiting to fail. His mechanic buddy at the dealer in Phx has seen plenty of 4.7 catastrophic failures that resulted from crappy inectors dying at the wrong time.
ANyhow, here's how the Roe works:
http://www.roeracing.com/index.html?token=1403693074-1403519191-1834178971&A=24&B=Viper%20Engine%20Calibrator
If you ask Marty, he swears by them. He can tune it in within 15 minutes and then you supposedly don't need to touch it again. Apparently, if you want to, you can adjust the thing for super lean so that you can get some MPG on the highway, etc. but Bob Mankin seems to think the adaptive logic of the PCM will be constantly fighting the box's effect.
I don't know what to spend money on anymore.... I've actually thought about buying a supercharger just to stuff more air in and lean out that frickin' 10:1 to about 13:1. But that's the knee-jerk bigger hammer reaction that always seems to get me into trouble..... (okay screw you! see if you can run rich with 10 psi of boost, you f*cker!!)
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graphiteRT
R/T
12/16/2002
14:45:31
| RE: Leach Reflash Update Again
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Alex, are you running a blower and shooting for 12.7:1??
That's waaay too lean for a blower app. 11-11.5:1 tops. Granted, that's convservative and leaves some on the table, but it also keeps from blowing stuff up.
I think even Marty recognizes the band-aid nature of the Roe and similar boxes. I believe he even uses the term on his site. FAST is a different story.
Bob
'01 Graphite CC R/T, MP headers, Magnaflow muffler into 'Cuda style exhaust, M1 2bbl, ported 2.02 R/T heads, custom grind cam, Crower SS rockers, Paxton Novi2000, Boyd's 20s w/Dunlop SP9000s
Soon: Viper 4 wheel discs
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notchlx
Dodge Dakota
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12/16/2002
14:54:52
| RE: Leach Reflash Update Again
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Alex,
Changing the injectors back out seems like a good idea. You wont be out of any more money, unless you take it back to the dyno to see if it made a change...Running an 11.5 would probably still be a little bit on the conservative side...Safe none-the-less.
That's the exact reason I wanted to do the S/C before anything else. Too many people going through shi$ trying to get things figured out on these 4.7's. I figured I would blow it to have the power now, and next year I would imagine I will have a nice selection of cams, heads, and intakes. Plus it will keep me from tearing into the 20,000mile motor.
Keep spending that money man. I'm watching yours and others progress, to know what will work and not...When you get it right, I'll know my next step..Of course I'll want to run a little rich, so I won't be able to go with an as aggressive tune, but, as far as cams, TB's, other tweeks I'll have a map in my head for what I want to do.
I'm waiting for someone to slap on KRC's heads and cams....The heads and cams along with a custom intake manifold mixed with the Paxton would prolly make for a little ass-kicken Dodge.
Forged pistons too....
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.alex.
Dodge Dakota
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12/16/2002
15:06:48
| RE: Leach Reflash Update Again
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Bob: No supercharger yet. I want 12.5:1 naturally aspirated. Right now I'm at 10.0:1 from 3500 on up to 6000. I was just joking about buying a supercharger specifically to lean out the motor. But that's just sillyness...
I need to dyno with the factory injectors just see what goes on.
Notch: Factory injectors is the next step, but soemtime before May I am aiming to go spend MY bonus on those KRC cams & springs and a shorter-runner intake. I am hesitant about the HO heads just yet because they have larger combustion chambers. That will lower my compression ratio even further from what Marty has already discovered to be about 8.9:1 or so. Here we all thought they were making 9.1:1 or better and the HO Jeeps were supposed to make 9.7:1 CR. Well, it turns out that the Jeeps are making 9.3:1 and the stock 4.7's are making even less. As exciting as the 11:1 pistons & forged bottom end sounds, the 218 cams are gonna be required and I really don't want my power peak at 6800 rpm. That's crazy.
Why all this before May? Marty will be sponsoring a Dakota Shootout at the Mopar Meet at Reynolds, GA in May. I'd love to show up with a little larger "set of balls" for that showdown...
We'll see.....
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notchlx
Dodge Dakota
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12/16/2002
15:43:11
| RE: Leach Reflash Update Again
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Reynolds???
Cool man...I won't have over-sized testicles, but I would love to participate.....Reynolds I'm guessing is about an hour south of Atlanta?
Not too far away from home, about 3-1/2-4 hours prolly.
I will love to see the gains on the short runner intake...I believe the 206 cams would be suitable for what I'm looking for..Nothing too radical.
Sounds GOOD!
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.alex.
Dodge Dakota
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12/16/2002
15:53:38
| RE: Leach Reflash Update Again
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I haven't been, but yep, i think Reynolds is about down by Macon. It's Silver Dollar Raceway. I know they've got a website, so just run a search for it. Anyway, I think a 7psi Paxton is at least polishing what balls you got, if not stepping up to a larger set. I'm waiting to see your results. Hell, if you go 13's in the middle of winter at Jackson, you KNOW it'll go well into the 13's in summer on a good track. Should be interesting. I may have to come down that way for some off-season practice. Is it a full 1/4 or just an 1/8th?
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notchlx
Dodge Dakota
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12/16/2002
16:10:15
| RE: Leach Reflash Update Again
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It's the 1/4...And it's open year round..
We were going to go to the NOPI nat's this year at Silver Dollar, but didn't make it.
I'll see if I can talk some of the locals into making the trip.
I think slicks will definitely be in order to achieve 13's...Next drop of the almighty dollar.
Yeah, I just did a search on mapquest.com. They are on HWY 96 West in Reynolds. Right beside Macon. Map Quest says 4hrs and 38minutes, I say 3-1/2 to 4hrs.
Should make for an interesting drive in the bouncy regular cab. All back roads too.
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.alex.
Dodge Dakota
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12/16/2002
17:19:28
| RE: Leach Reflash Update Again
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Well, hopefully we'll meet up before then.....
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notchlx
Dodge Dakota
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12/16/2002
17:35:57
| RE: Leach Reflash Update Again
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Let me know when you want to come down...We could arrange some meal time, and track time.
It's not too far away.
Saturdays around noon are the best time to run...Sun shining on the track... Shoot for some traction.
If you're looking to ditch those slicks that are just taking up space, you could bring those, and I'll take them off of your hands.
Cash just got tight here recently...hummm
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Canucker
Dodge Dakota
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12/16/2002
18:23:48
| RE: Leach Reflash Update Again
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LMAO:"okay screw you! see if you can run rich with 10 psi of boost, you f*cker!!" HAAAHAAHAHAHA!!
So it sounds like the Roe controller intercepts the MAP and TPS signals .. would that be an acurate assumption? Sounds like it just tells the PCM its at a higher or lower MAP and/or TPS that it really is. hmmmm....
make sure you keep us updated alex! You should get frequent flyer miles at your dyno shop!
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CASDAK
Dodge Dakota
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12/16/2002
20:33:17
| RE: Leach Reflash Update Again
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.alex.,
Is Marty really going to have a "shoot-out" sometime in May? I live in Kentucky and would like to bring the Little-92 down for some fun. Plus, I'm sure that I would be needing a vacation by about May anyways, so why not kill two birds with one stone...drag racing/vacation!
Sounds like a winner for everyone!
...now if I can convince the wife!
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notchlx
Dodge Dakota
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12/16/2002
22:23:08
| RE: Leach Reflash Update Again
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I feel the same way...
My wife doesn't know, but everytime she asks where I want to go on vacation, I check places out that may be having a big car show, or event...Went to a nice show in Maggie Valley this past summer, then cruised up to Pigeon Forge later in the week, and caught a show up there.
Oh well we might as well, seeing that we're here and everything? uhh OK..
Drag-Strip vacation..Now that's a plan.
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CASDAK
Dodge Dakota
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12/17/2002
01:30:49
| RE: Leach Reflash Update Again
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Well...I'm very fortunate in the fact that my wife comes from a line of drag racers on her dad's side. Her uncle is a local bracket racer and her brother used to run his own car...before his wife had their new baby girl.
So, she enjoys the track...and yes I've even let her take the truck down the track a few times.
She didn't do too bad...in fact she had one helluva reaction time. Her only draw-back is that I'm 6'5" and she's 5'4" and she can't mash the accelerator as deep as I can (my driver's seat is screwed up so I can't move it up for her), so her top end is a little slower.
I'm kind of in the same boat as .alex., for I would like to beef up my truck a lot more if I were to head down to Georgia.
My little 318 may be fun, but I doubt it would hang with most of the trucks at the shootout.
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notchlx
Dodge Dakota
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12/17/2002
07:40:52
| RE: Leach Reflash Update Again
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Hell, I'll be S/C'd and prolly won't be able to hang, and I doubt I'll be able to get it consistent before then either. Need lots 'O practice.
I went to a Ford day Drag event, where I was the only Dodge running. My average for the day was a 15.1 @ 89mph.
It's all for fun.
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.alex.
Dodge Dakota
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12/17/2002
10:27:42
| RE: Leach Reflash Update Again
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The Mopar Meet has been an annual event at Silver Dollar Raceway for years now. But last year the guy that advertises on Marty's site (www.mopartsracing.com) pretty much convinced Marty to sponsor some sort of shoot-out that'll pretty much just be all Dakotas within the regular racing program. No details yet on whether it'll be heads up or bracket or indexed or what. But it'll be the first chance I get to feel even remotely competitive.
Notch.... after the holidays, I'll have to figure out a good time to come down. I need to join AAA soon so I can get that free ride home on the roll-back when I smear the pumpkin or a u-joint. hahahahah
I still need to buy the wider set of tires and a pair of rims to mount them (I sold those Primes). But once I get that together and all this PCM shyte figgered, we'll head on down to Disgusta. I'd love to see that Paxton install, too.
New developments:
- Talked to Tom Fox at Leach: Just put in the factory injectors and try 'em out. Also, if all else fails, it sounds stupid, but put the factory throttlebody back on.
Huh? Yeah, it's counter-intuitive, but he's seen lots of 5.2/5.9 guys replace their new billet 52 mm TB's with the factory TB and had it pick up LOTS of power. So, wouldn't it be funny if cudashoe was right? No, not really? I agree. Not funny at all. But we'll just see what the effect of the injectors will be and go from there.
Other bad news: The poor cat lost its sh!t yesterday and I now have the classic "coffee can full of marbles" sound at idle. I get lots of funny looks at the grocey store.... Jeeeezus, what an ugly-ass orange truck AND it rattles. Ordered a new 3" Catco from Summit last nite. $56. Nuf said.
So, I'll install the cat & the injectors and go back for $65 more of pretty ink. I'll try to get my dyno graph posted somewhere that I can link to. The correction factor on Saturday's weather actually shows me making 227 hp instead of 238, but we ran all my dyno runs through the same correction filter and that's the highest HP number I've made so far.
Brighter News: I took a 2nd and 3rd look at the curves that we laid down on Saturday as compared to the original pulls...... that's where the power is. Old pull at 5200 rpm....~180 rwhp. New pulls at 5200 rpm....~225 rwhp. That's a 45 hp gain. The gap gets wider at 5400 (50 + hp at least). Where the limiter used to kick in at 5500, this time, it's still making 175 rwhp at 6000 rpm. That's a 175 hp gain! HeeHee....
Imagine when we get enough fuel trimmed out of the PCM!!! Damn!!!
PS- CASDAK: How in the hell did I think you were from Canada??
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notchlx
Dodge Dakota
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12/17/2002
11:05:29
| RE: Leach Reflash Update Again
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alex
I couldn't agree with you more on the AAA issue...I better join before driving to Reynolds.
Long way to go to bum a ride, and I'm sure the tow bill would be outrageous.
If you get pics, you can e-mail them to me, and I'll post 'em for you. I've got a rinky dink web-site I use to keep some photos on. Maybe one of these days instead of posting on these web-sites all day, I'll clean it up a little.
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Canucker
Dodge Dakota
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12/17/2002
11:26:15
| RE: Leach Reflash Update Again
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DTO.org also has some limited picture posting available to members .. that's what I use.
your poor cat! $56 bucks for a replacement though is pretty darn good... who make's 'em? Catco you say? never heard of them.
The whole throttle body issue is still kinda a grey area I think. ... I mean a larger one will basically cause less of a pressure drop into the manifold right ... that would mean a higher MAP reading .. and more fuel?? but I can't see it making so much of a difference that it kills your A/F ... and especially at higher RPMs like that, I would almost guess it'd be the other way around at high RPMs and it would cause a lean condition cause it lets more air into the manifold than what the PCM thinks is there with the stock TB on there ... aaww hell, I just don't know anymore.
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CASDAK
Dodge Dakota
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12/17/2002
11:33:50
| RE: Leach Reflash Update Again
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.alex.,
I don't know, why did you think I was from Canada. Maybe it's the way I spell my usename on this site? No big deal...I'm just south of Canada...in the Bluegrass State.
notchlx,
Well I know that there's always someone that's going to be faster, but I was just talking out of my head. Heck, I probably won't be able to make the shootout, but who knows, I may get off my butt and get some things done on my truck and be able to make the show.
I think it would be fun to race against other Dakotas in this type of venue. Someone can "compare/contrast" the times on their truck versus the times of the other trucks, and determine what type of modifications work...and which ones don't.
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notchlx
Dodge Dakota
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12/17/2002
11:45:12
| RE: Leach Reflash Update Again
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Canucker
That's what we have Alex for.... We don't have to figure it out....He will.
Alex, just do it one change at the time though. When you go to the dyno, do the first pull with the 70MM..Pull it off of the dyno if they will let you and swap out. Hop back on and see what happens with the stocker.
Keep you from having to go back so soon. I think Leach could do a little more aggressive tuning on the flash to utilize the extra fuel now. You are making the power in the upper revs now..Seems like with a little more tweaking on the box, the fuel situation could be solved, but it's a pain in the rear to have to keep sending in the unit.
Seems like the dead spot at 4,200 could be dealt with, with more timing advance from say 3,950-5600, and at the same time calming the fuel curve down a little. This way the injectors would be in place when you get ready to add the heads or boost. I don't claim to know what I'm talking about, but there are ways around the problem, and I feel there are some serious ponies left on the table, especially with the power over the old 5,500 rev limiter.
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Chipster
Dodge Dakota
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12/17/2002
11:46:19
| RE: Leach Reflash Update Again
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Hey .Alex., I wish I could come to the
shoot-out, but I'm way over in SoCal.
Our mods are similar, I have a 2001
CC 4.7 Auto. Mine dyno's 229HP with
the Kenne Bell Optimizer II. I can run
mine on 87 octane and it won't ping,
so there is plenty more tuning that can
be done to it.
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.alex.
Dodge Dakota
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12/17/2002
11:54:11
| RE: Leach Reflash Update Again
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Plus it's all at one track at one event. No worrying about sea level and all that crappola.
I will try to post later on at dto.org so I can link 'em here.
As for Catco, they are in the Summit catalog. They don't even list applications. It just says starting at $45.59 so i called 'em last nite. I asked for a 3" in/out with no air tube. He says.... Uuuuhhhhh that's a 9607 blah blah blah okay that'll be $47.63 with shipping. I almost sh!t my pants. The Carsound that just fell apart cost about $200. Shady muffler shops are a two-edged sword. They can hook you up when it's a federal matter, but they f*ck you up when it's time to pay rent on the garage space. Sheesh.
Anyhow, I'm not taking that throttlebody off yet. I'm gonna make this thing work whether it knows it or not. muuhahahahahahha.....
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.alex.
Dodge Dakota
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12/17/2002
12:02:59
| RE: Leach Reflash Update Again
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D'oh! Typing too slow again! Well, if i go with the heads later on and it leans out, I know how to get everything back in order. Hahahah.... Just stick on these sewer pipe injectors!
I'm gonna start with the injectors. And my new cat.
I might take the stock TB with me and I've gotten that swap down to about 15 minutes. I don't think the dyno guy would mind, but I worry about the 250 mile learning curve that's pretty necessary in addition to resetting the PCM. I think the PCM needs about 2 degrees more timing from about 3200 on up to 6700. That will use up some fuel, and the smaller injectors should take up the rest.
As for the larger TB, I just kinda figured that by this point, the fuel system would actually be working to keep up with that much air. Guess not.
Once i post the curves, you'll see the silly-ass'd difference between the limiter and the power we've already unleashed. hahahahaa But you'll also be able to see the dip I'm talking about.
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Canucker
Dodge Dakota
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12/17/2002
12:15:05
| RE: Leach Reflash Update Again
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damn ... I have to update my 'To Buy' list I think ... do you think you could muster up the part number for us like a good little boy? :) heh heh ...
oh, BTW ... it has begun! I'm just closing a deal on an inline fuel pump and Vortech FMU with a guy here locally. $225 for the both of them .. mwaahahaha mmuuuaaahaaahaaa hahaha .. that's CDN funds too ... so like $140 US bucks ... let the forced induction parts collecting begin!!!
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notchlx
Dodge Dakota
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12/17/2002
12:54:59
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Canucker,
What kind of system you planning? S/C, Turbo?
Custom kit eh?
Sounds good.
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Canucker
Dodge Dakota
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12/17/2002
13:09:20
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Turbo ... eventually. I have most parts spec'd out ... just waiting on money .. as usual. don't expect much progress outta me though til next year probably. I figure I'll take this year to amass the parts I need, after endlessly shopping around for good deals. Then, hopefully, by next year, I'll have everything I need, and it doesn't even seem like that hard of a hit on the budget ($100 here .. $100 there .. heck, I drink that much in a weekend!)... the final fabrication and installation will still cost a bit though. I'll have to pay someone to bend me some exhaust pipes and weld and stuff (though maybe I'll have a welder by then too). hopefully I can get the intake side done with mandrel bent stock, and some connectors.
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notchlx
Dodge Dakota
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12/17/2002
13:22:32
| RE: Leach Reflash Update Again
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Sounds good man,
You seem like a purty fart smeller, I mean smart fellow.
I see your posts on some of the other sites, and it seems you know your junk. I like the idea. Not so much of a hit on the wallet at one time.
I wish you all the luck, and I know you'll keep us informed.
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Canucker
Dodge Dakota
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12/17/2002
13:37:37
| RE: Leach Reflash Update Again
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hey thanks man .. I'm learning something new everyday though, I can still say that.
Definitely will be keeping ppl posted .. times, dynos etc also .. but like I said, not for another year or so. And who knows what may come up between now and then. I may end up with a closet full of turbo parts I need to sell! ha! hope not though
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notchlx
Dodge Dakota
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12/17/2002
13:46:11
| RE: Leach Reflash Update Again
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You can do a search on this web-site using my name...I was looking at getting the supercharger this time last year..Just now getting it.
Things that cost that much take some of us a little while to come up with the dough.
I was post whoring for a year trying to find people who had them installed, and how they were liking them, etc...
Not to mention last year I had prolly 7-8000 miles on the truck...Kinda nervous about charging it. Well now it has 20,000 miles, and the 3 year warranty is about up. Time to see if I can blow it up.
I'm definitely learning something everyday too.
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Canucker
Dodge Dakota
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12/17/2002
14:05:00
| RE: Leach Reflash Update Again
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yeah I think I've email whored Duner to death! ... oops :) that's what you get for being the first to do something eh? ha ha :D
So when are you finally installing the charger?
Do you still have a Stang?
Back on topic ... when are you gonna post those dyno sheets alex??? c'mon, us slackers are waiting ... been avoiding work all day in fact.
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