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R/Truck
Dodge Dakota
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4/22/2002
15:57:34
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 Subject: 2000 & newer timing advance on the 5.9L
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Do you have a 2000 or newer truck that no PCM is offered for or the dealer pulled 4 degrees of timing out of, with the DRBIII to keep your truck from having detonation or pre-ignition problems, and now the truck is a pig? Sluggish and generally will not spin the tires from a stoplight, even with a 360?
Then advance your timing.
Your timing is set initially by the crankshaft sensor and the distributor has the camshaft sensor in it to determine when the injectors fire relative to the amount of valve opening. So moving the distributor does not affect base timing. But moving the crankshaft sensor relative to it's current position does. The trick is this, and takes about one hour.
Remove the crankshaft sensor on the aft/passenger side of the block. It is held down by (2) 1/2" bolts and pulls out of the tranny bellhousing when loose. There is a rubber grommet in the bellhousing also, remove it. Now look at the sensor's bracket, notice the 2 bolt holes. Slot each hole 3/8" both ways, still giving the bolts something to hold onto. Then insert the sensor back into the bellhousing, making sure you pulled out the rubber grommet. Thread the 2 bolts back in loose, then slide the sensor as far as it can, towards the oil filter, away from the intake. This will advance, moving it towards the intake in the same direction of crank rotation and will retard the base timing; do not do this unless your teenager is driving the truck. It will usually be limited by the bellhousing how far you can move it. If you are really brave, grind the bellhousing and fab a new adjustable bracket. This will add 3-4 degrees of timing across the whole board of advance tables, and cure the Death Flash problem in your Magnum.
Has anyone tried this and does it really work. BTW- I got it off of Krcperformance.com
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rt for 4
Dodge Dakota
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4/22/2002
19:31:13
| RE: 2000 & newer timing advance on the 5.9L
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Well my new 2002 5.9 quad cab has all the symptoms...no power and can barely get out of its own way at a stop light. For a 5.9 it is a slug.
I had a 96 Ram with 5.9 with catback and mopar pcm that ran pretty good.
I've added K& N type intake and a cat back and it still is a dog at the stop light. ANYONE know if this timing advance tip works??????? Still no PCM available for the 2002.
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R/Truck
Dodge Dakota
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4/23/2002
11:10:13
| RE: 2000 & newer timing advance on the 5.9L
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There are pcm's available for our trucks, just not Mopar. Check out ASE chips, Kenne Bell Optimizer(which are both $350), and B&G Chrysler do custom flashes (which is $500-600). Dodge cranked the timming way down on the 5.9L so we wouldn't blaze our tires off at stop lights. I wouldn't expect Mopar to come thru anytime soon, so go check out the other options.
But I would like to hear from someone that did this free modification.
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jjj
Dodge Dakota
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4/23/2002
21:39:26
|  RE: 2000 & newer timing advance on the 5.9L
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Did it to my 99 5.2 and my 01 5.9.
Does work, however not worth it IMO unless you grind the bell housing, I am running 6 deg right now. Slight ping with WOT and 87 octane and 195 T-stat. Can dial in more timing but then I'd have to use high octane. Still working on getting better mileage. Not bad if I stay out of the throttle, but the inherent weight of the QC makes it hard (also the reason I didn't get th 4.7, didn't have the balls with the QC and 4X4 w/3.55).
Had my 99 RC 5.2 getting 15 in town and 18.5-19.5 at 70mph consistently (also increased perf. win win), but the 01 QC is being elusive. Too Colorado with 4 people and bed loaded to the max, sub freezing weather and 75 mph best was 16mpg. Summer got 18+.
The stock belt fan has been gone since day one, the 180 t-stat reducing pinging (along with mpg and performance). Hope this helps.
Oh yeah, get a spare crank sensor if doing a radical relocate and I didn't read about it from KRC. Also try to resync the engine after to keep the fuel curve right.
Jeff
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rt for 4
Dodge Dakota
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4/23/2002
23:56:32
| RE: 2000 & newer timing advance on the 5.9L
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JJJ, Did you modify the bellhousing to get your six degrees of advance? How did you get at it, since its so tight down there?
Also how are you measuring timing change?
Did you add another fan after taking the stock engine fan off, or is the electric stock one enough?
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KRC Tech
Dodge Dakota
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4/24/2002
07:36:02
| RE: 2000 & newer timing advance on the 5.9L
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Jeff, it does work without spending the extra time grinding the bellhousing. I see 3-4 degrees easily. Grinding the bellhousing on a Dakota is an option, but try it on the Ram, it's nowhere near as easy. And what does reading it from KRC have to do with anything?
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jjj
Dodge Dakota
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4/24/2002
08:50:41
| RE: 2000 & newer timing advance on the 5.9L
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KRC Tech,
No offense meant, I didn't read your info and didn't want what I did as taken as yours in case your info was different. I agree 3-4 is possible without grinding, but on mine it was closer to 2-3 on both trucks, not that you usually will feel 1 deg.. An ideal setup would be a different sensor setup where it be on a bracket and go down under the bellhousing (the stock one is too high and the wires come out the top) and the brackets could be made for different deg. offsets. So say I could order a 7 deg. offset sensor from you and just bolt it into place. Hint Hint :) Never did a Ram are they tighter yet? Again sorry about the missunderstanding, even though what we did sounds similar without reading your info there could have been differences that maybe you wouldn't agree with and I didn't want it taken as if I followed your procedure.
rt for 4,
Ground it with a die grinder, the hole is big enough to get 8-10 deg out of but it pinged too bad at that point on 87 and when towing. Also made a offset crank sensor since I slid it past what the modified bracket can do. Timing was measured at the crank w/light at 3k rpms in neutral stock was 35 deg now 41 deg. if I remember correctly.
Just using the stock electric fan, even kept it cool towing two jetskiis to Key Largo last summer. My setup likes heat alittle better for all around use so I keep the 195 tstat. The 180 may work better if hammering it all the time, but if I wanted to do that the Cuda is in the garage.
Jeff
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rt for 4
Dodge Dakota
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4/24/2002
17:09:56
| RE: 2000 & newer timing advance on the 5.9L
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JJJ
I just performed the mod on my 2002 quad per krc instructions. The stock bracket is limited on travel just like you said. I think the bellhousing hole was the limiting factor rather than the bracket itself. I'd guess I got a quarter inch of movement on the sensor. Doing some rough math that would figure out to only 2 to 3 degrees. But even with that slight amount, it is VERY NOTICEABLE. I will probably go back and try to enlarge the hole and redo the bracket for even more performance. Unfortunately the stock hole is bigger toward the retard side, where it is not needed. I didn't notice but is the crank dampner marked in degrees up to 45 degrees.
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R/Truck
Dodge Dakota
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4/24/2002
17:13:00
| RE: 2000 & newer timing advance on the 5.9L
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Glad to hear that is worked for someone, what do you think the limit is before the engine starts to knock and ping?
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alex
Dodge Dakota
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4/24/2002
17:49:40
| RE: 2000 & newer timing advance on the 5.9L
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Will this work on the 4.7's?
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KRC Tech
Dodge Dakota
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4/24/2002
18:43:18
| RE: 2000 & newer timing advance on the 5.9L
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None taken JJJ, my tone of voice wasn't the way I wrote the last comment. It was more of a question. I do have a adjustable in the works though. I set them till I hear detonation and back off slightly (on the modified bells). I get alot of calls, they all ask, does this really work? Don't ask, Just Do It....later!
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jjj
Dodge Dakota
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4/24/2002
21:05:23
| RE: 2000 & newer timing advance on the 5.9L
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rt for 4,
Don't know on the damper never looked :) I use an adjustable timing light.
R/truck,
I got 6 deg. and still use 87 octane, will ping slightly towing and WOT, other than that nothing noticeable. I also added msd 8.5 wires in place of the stockers (my dad needed new wires for his 92 Dak. so I bought the msd's and took my new wires off of the 01) and a blaster 2 coil. This helped in the idle department alot not sure about the pinging dept., however I still run the 195 tstat and stock champ plugs.
10 deg. and it pinged too much for my liking.
Alex,
4.7's don't know, maybe KRC does.
KRC tech,
If you can make the sensor a drop in in the stock hole, I think you'd have a big hit. Esp. if the Rams are tighter. I pretty much set mine the same way as you do as far as the ping.
Jeff
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KRC Tech
Dodge Dakota
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4/25/2002
07:02:24
| RE: 2000 & newer timing advance on the 5.9L
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Unfortunately, it cannot be done on the 4.7. The crank sensor is bored into the block on the side as the V10 is. The sensor is triggered by a tonewheel on the crank. The bore would have to be re-machined after getting welded up. Now the signal coming off of the sensor can be advanced with the ICON box. Much easier to do.
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rt for 4
Dodge Dakota
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4/25/2002
17:06:42
| RE: 2000 & newer timing advance on the 5.9L
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KRC Marty.... Now you got me hooked on horsepower after this modification! I got $500 budget for the next mod. Where should the money go...ignition (msd & wires, cap & coil), shorty headers JBA, or 1.7 roller rockers.
Looking for low end and midrange. Already have
cat back, ported TB & KN , 180thermostat
2002 5.9 quad
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KRC Tech
Dodge Dakota
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4/25/2002
18:14:19
| RE: 2000 & newer timing advance on the 5.9L
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Always do intake and ignition mods first on any motor to increase torque. The 1.7's will net more power than the MSD as compared to each other. Later!
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TML
Dodge Dakota
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4/26/2002
22:19:41
| RE: 2000 & newer timing advance on the 5.9L
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Can someone tell me exactly where this crankshaft sensor is? I have looked all over the passenger side of the engine and around the bellhousing, and I can't find it. I have headers, so maybe there in the way. Thanks.
2000 QC 4x4 5.9L
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jjj
Dodge Dakota
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4/26/2002
22:52:18
| RE: 2000 & newer timing advance on the 5.9L
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It is on the pass. side behind the head. Easiest way to get to it is to remove the inner fender. Well ok practically the only way :)
Jeff
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TML
Dodge Dakota
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4/27/2002
08:03:31
| RE: 2000 & newer timing advance on the 5.9L
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Thanks Jeff. I will see what I can do with it.
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Aaro
Dodge Dakota
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4/27/2002
18:58:28
| RE: 2000 & newer timing advance on the 5.9L
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What I did was a little odd but seemed easy compared to grinding the bellhousing. I pulled the fender liner, pulled the crank sensor, slotted the holes; I refitted the sensor and saw where it was hitting the bellhousing and got an idea. The sensor looks like a big block of plastic molded around a bracket on one end and a magnet inside the other end. What I did is take a sanding block and sand down the plastic on the bracket end until it was flush with the bracket; I only removed the top 3/8". This gave me about an extra 1/8" of movement. total advancement was 4-5 deg. I would have liked to have a bad sensor that I could take apart and see how well the bracket is anchored in the plastic and how deep it can be sanded before it becomes junk.
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Aaro
Dodge Dakota
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4/27/2002
19:06:17
| RE: 2000 & newer timing advance on the 5.9L
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Almost forgot very good power gain, 5 degrees is probably too much without a 180 stat and some mods (headers, TB, cold air intake).
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jjj
Dodge Dakota
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4/27/2002
22:33:04
| RE: 2000 & newer timing advance on the 5.9L
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I actually ground mine away quite abit (down to the metal bracket) before doing the bell housing and yes you are right you do get some more. Currently running six deg. without any of the mods you mentioned, w/10 deg. you definetly need the 180 and higher octane. I could go up to about 12+ deg. where I am at now, but tooo cheap to buy 93.
My goal is 15mpg/town 20/hwy and no power loss (actually a gain) on 87 octane without spending over a $200 (not counting hardshell cover). Needless to say this isn't an easy task w/5.9 QC 4X4.
jeff
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