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TexasMark
Dodge Dakota
12/24/2001
07:41:19
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 Subject: SHOULD I (318 upgrade to 360)
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Hi all im new here and love this place!
I have a 1991 Dakota ex cab 4*4 sport wit a 318.
(no Power when pulling my boat)
Motor is worn out. Should i just rebuild my 318 putting a cam in it or should i try to find a 360 to build and putin!
If i go with the 360 does it need to be befour a 92? What will i need to make it fit and work!
Also does any one know what size my Holly tbi is?
Thank for any help Mark
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Flash
Dodge Dakota
12/24/2001
14:24:19
|  RE: SHOULD I (318 upgrade to 360)
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The 318 and the 360 are of the same block family. Most parts will interchange. The 360 is the 318 bored and stroked. You can do a 360 with a minimum of custom fitting or you can bore your 318 to a 340. The 340 is probably the best small block in the mopar family. Very quick, reasonable hp, and doesn't drink gas. If you turn yours into a 340, a mild cam, headers, high volume oil pump should also be on your list.
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Bill55
Dodge Dakota
12/24/2001
14:49:41
| RE: SHOULD I (318 upgrade to 360)
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Look into the Mopar Crate motors. You can probably buy a new 360 cheaper than paying someone else to rebuild your 318. Or possibly a low mileage 360 from the wrecking yard. Crate motors come in 300HP and 380HP.
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TexasMark
Dodge Dakota
12/24/2001
16:17:52
| RE: SHOULD I (318 upgrade to 360)
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Thank for the info Flash & David
I did not think about boring out my 318 to a 340 sounds like it might be the way to go. Befour the idea of boring it out to a 340 I priced a rebuild kit and a mild cam at about $700.** not sure if im up to the job or have the time. This old Dakota is my daily driver i cant have it down for very long.
Also im having a hard time finding Header for a 1991 ex cab 4*4, 318 Not to sure what fits.
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Hersbird
Dodge Dakota
12/24/2001
22:13:09
| RE: SHOULD I (318 upgrade to 360)
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I don't think you can just bore your standard 318 block to a 340. The best bet for towing in a 91 Dakota would be that 300 HP crate 360. It cost just under $3000 and all it needs is a feul delivery systen, all the pullies and accessories and the exhaust system. It even comes with a mopar performance distirbuter. The 360 is externally balanced so would require your torque converter to be balanced but Mopar sells a kit for that as well.
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R Middleton
Dodge Dakota
12/25/2001
22:10:29
| RE: SHOULD I (318 upgrade to 360)
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Item one a "Classic 340" block has a bore that is .030" over the 360 bore with a 318 crank. to hog your 318 out that big would get you in big trouble.
Depending on whether you are a builder or not you can probably pick up a 360 rebuild project fairly resonably (don't tell them it's for your hotrod Dak they'll probably charge you extra.) look in the fullsize Rams.
If you want a crate motor the two choices used to be 300hp 360ci or 380hp 360ci this year MP is releasing a stroker crate smallblock that comes in around 402ci and I think 435hp or close to that, They also now have a crate 5.9mpi which I suspect would be right up your alley. go to your local Cahpters and find a Mopar rag with the dirt on the new offerings from MP and I guarantee you'll find what you need.
Peace
"It is easier to REACT,
than it is to THINK."
Middy.
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TexasMark
Dodge Dakota
12/26/2001
20:49:53
| RE: SHOULD I (318 upgrade to 360)
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Thanks for all the info guys
Now what to do?
I Don't have thousands to spend on a new motor wiring and computer for a multi port injection system. So ill need to go the junk yard rout and rebulid with the help of a friend. Should i get a 360 or can i find a 340, what kind of vehicle has a 340?
If I rebuild my 318 how much do u think i can punch it out and put bigger pistons, cam, Port TBI
Thanks again for any help or sagestions!
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R. Middleton
Dodge Dakota
12/27/2001
03:02:38
| RE: SHOULD I (318 upgrade to 360)
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340's are expensive and hard HARD to find in rebuildable shape anywhere that's wy MP is rereleasing the 340 block. If you want to keep the truck on the road I think you gotta go with a junkyard 360 out of a truck or van. Then sell your 318 after you finish to recoup some expenses.
I'm sorry I don't have any spotting features fo you to look for in the yard but I'm sure the disp is on the block somewhere.
Most mopar performance builders will argue that the 360 is as good as the 340 for a starting place for a strong small block.
If low buck is a concern you might ask around about a different CAM for your 318.
I'm afraid I'm mostly book smart and streetdumb as I don't have a garage but I've done a lot of reading and coresponding on the subject of Mopar Smallblocks.
good engine builder websie.
http://www.victorylibrary.com/mopar/mopar-tech.htm
Goodluck.
"It is easier to REACT
than it is to THINK."
Middy.
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TexasMark
Dodge Dakota
12/27/2001
22:26:25
| RE: SHOULD I (318 upgrade to 360)
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Thanks R. Middelton
Sounds like good sold advice.
I guess ill check in to the price of a used 360 aswell as the possibility of a cam for my 318. What would you think of my 318 with cam, ported TBI, ported and polished intake and headers? I think it would run good, however i sure like the idea of some major HP improvment with minimal down time.
Mark
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Brad
Dodge Dakota
12/28/2001
10:30:44
| RE: SHOULD I (318 upgrade to 360)
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The 91's have the old holley tbi setup correct? I would think a rebuilt 360 (pre 92)would be the best option. If you were to go to a SMPI system that would require changing all wiring and computers. You might get away with just changing the injectors on the holley system with the 360. I think the TBI system chrysler used on those trucks are the same as the holley projection system.
If you stay with the 318, I think you can bore out .030" max. Most people say keep it to .020".
A decent cam and headers would go a long way on the 318.
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Hersbird
Dodge Dakota
12/28/2001
20:36:05
| RE: SHOULD I (318 upgrade to 360)
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It shouldn't matter weather or not you get a pre 92 LA (273-318-340-360) or a current magnum motor. The difference is in how parts bolt together on the motor itself, like the heads bolt to the bolt differently. Externally the motor mount points and transmission bolt patterns are the same. All accessories off your current motor, including the current TBI feul system should work on any small block you chose, although there will be a limit to the amount of power the stock feul system is capable of producing. Simply going to magum 318 out of a 92 or newer Ram or Dakota would seem like a good improvement but you could accomplish the same thing with better heads, intake, cam, and exhaust on your current 318 although a good set of heads alone can cost more then a say 40,000 mile boneyard 318 magnum. Personally from a performance standpoint, I think the pre magnum small blocks are actually a better setup, with probably a greater supply of aftermarket. One major change on the magnum motor that always baffled me was the change to stud mounter rocker arms. The Chevy aftermarket was just getting hyped on the conversion from stud to shaft mounted rockers arms, something the pre-magnum motors had from the beginning. Chevy guys wanted 1" increased deck height on their blocks, and better rod ratios, then they'd swap over to shaft mounted rockers. Basically whay didn't they just start with a Mopar small block in the first place rather then trying to make their Chevy into one.
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TexasMark
Dodge Dakota
12/28/2001
22:36:25
| RE: SHOULD I (318 upgrade to 360)
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Thanks Brad & Hersbird
This is starting to make my brain ack!
I made some a few call and found its sorta hard to find a 360 however thats the route i think im going to take. Does any one know the size of the holly TBI on a 1991, 318. Also if i had a Magnum eng can i plug the injection ports or do i need a new head to run a TBI
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doug dawson
Dodge Dakota
12/29/2001
20:47:09
| RE: SHOULD I (318 upgrade to 360)
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There is also another alternative... a 360 short block through mopar performance for about 1200.00... pre magnum or magnum ...then set up a nice set of edelbrock heads...also about 1200.00..there are also magnum r/t heads available at www.hughes engines.com if you decide to go the magnum route...
Be sure and have the seats checked for out of round on the aluminum jobbies. then you are in business. way cheeeeeper than the more expensive crate motor, all of your accessories will transfer over.. but there is a difference in the driver side motor mount...this is available through most any mopar performance dealer...not sure of the size of the t.b on the current 318... if you stay injected there are some more goodies to score, if you go carburated then either motor will accept a manifold for whatever you want to do..it may be easier to stay injected and score an oem computer for a 360 for your year, another consideration is the tranny... more torque and h.p = more foot on the loud pedal...and thus a tranny failure real quick after the transplant...the 904 a500 type like you probably have has a lower first gear than the 518 or 727..and can be beefed up to handle the extra strain... i run a 904 in my 400 plus hp small block and it is a blast..
at any rate...there are alternatives...
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TxMark
Dodge Dakota
12/30/2001
15:56:24
| RE: SHOULD I (318 upgrade to 360)
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Thanks doug dawson
ill have to check on the price of a short block from dodge. Can i get a 340 short block and use my 318 heads on it?
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doug dawson
Dodge Dakota
12/30/2001
16:50:00
| RE: SHOULD I (318 upgrade to 360)
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You can get a 340 resto block, but then you are building from the ground up...the 360 has a few advantages...More displacement, more torque, will rev with the 340, and responds a little more favorably to street level cams..I own both engines in A body cars... I love my 340's but the 360 is much cheaper overall...just because it is more plentiful. the 340 only came one way..HOT..it was not a bread and butter motor, The 360 and 340 both use the same rods, the 340's are bushed for full floating pins. The 340 and 360 share the same motor mounts, water pump housing, water pump, pulleys, manifold, they use the same heads, same intake manifold, headers, cams, valvetrain etc.. they do use different oil pans, but the same oil pump, distributor, etc...the best thing about a 360 is it is capable of 100-150 more ft pounds of torque in a useable rpm range than the 340.. the 340 usually responds to it's torque in the 2500 -4000 rpm range. And if you are pulling any thing the 340 is definitely not the choice to make..
Not to mention there are limited amount of pistons for the 340, and a lot of them out there for the 360. stock range was in the 8.25-9.5 compression range on the 360 with BIG dishes in the pistons, the 340 was 8.5 - 10.25 with no dishes. the 360 in my dart is 11.5 -1 549-571 lift hydraulic cam, lots of head work etc... in my opinion an 11 second 360, is just as dast as an 11 second 340, an 11 second 440 etc..the 360 uses a cast crank which is lighter than the 340 forged unit,and it is good to 5-600 street ponies.. uses lighter pistons, it does require a externally balanced damper, and counterweights on the torque converter, but b& m makes a flex plate that allows you to use nuetral balanced torque convertors,......any way it boils down to preference and cubic dollars...use the mopar heavy duty rocker arms and shafts.. do not bother with roller rockers, use the performer rpm manifold and you can even get the air gap if u like.. the mopar units are ok but not nearly as good. the crate motors come with a 509 cam... too big for towing, and too big for an automatic street car, and does not idle well under 1000 rpm...something like a .455 to .474 cam with a 114 or 112 centerline on the cam... stay away from the 484 cam it is too long on the duration...hughes engines makes some real nice cams that are larger that the mopar units in lift, and use less duration.. I really like their stuff...don't let them bs you into super duper roller timing chains or rockers though... their lifters are real nice though...
As for using 318 heads on a 360 or 340 NO WAY...they will bolt up, but the 318 has very small ports and will not flow effectively past 3800 - 4000 rpm, it will be like putting a vw bug motor in a school bus.
here is a link to the short blocks..
http://www.jimsautoparts.com/engineassy.htm
1174.95 for the 360 short block... a real bargain, assembled with a warranty and hypereutectic pistons...sweet deal
scroll down to the short blocks, there are compression ratio options, if you go with aluminum heads you can use more compression, if you use iron heads stay under 9.5 to 1 compression
it has all of the crate and other motors on there too...
let me know if this helps
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TxMark
Dodge Dakota
12/30/2001
20:18:09
| RE: SHOULD I (318 upgrade to 360)
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Thank agian
Thats alot of good info ill need to digest for a while. Your right about the 340 i need more low end torque. I dont tow a very heavy trailer but might later. The 360 sounds like a good block to work with. With the 318 i have now I rairly go over 3000 rpm. Im not racing, just want reliable power.
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doug dawson
Dodge Dakota
12/30/2001
21:55:04
| RE: SHOULD I (318 upgrade to 360)
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the guy who was talking about the heads, i will enlighten him...when chrysler revamped in the end if the eighties,,,they were made to get rid of the big blocks all together, wisely they bought the amc company, they also had to reduce the emissions on their entire fleet....there comes the 1.7 motors and the 2.2...the trucks were exempt...by 92 the new high swirl design came out... this was basically an amc head as are all of the magnum heads today....the old mopar heads had pretty good exhausts and decent intakes...but the new ones do a better job in the rpm range than the old ones...but look at the old amc stuff and you see the modern mopar heads...
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TxMark
Dodge Dakota
12/30/2001
22:23:48
| RE: SHOULD I (318 upgrade to 360)
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I,m starting to get lost. Hate to say it but guess im much of a Eng builder. I have got so much info from all you guys my head is swriling around. Bottom line is im going to see how much i can get out of my 318 boring, cam, porting tbi,ex headers. and also check to see what a 360 runs and price it out to bulid. I need to reread all the info i got here a few time, you all seem to know your stuff, and i need to study.
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afw
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
1/18/2003
07:29:07
| RE: SHOULD I (318 upgrade to 360)
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I just bought a ram 250 pickup with a 318 motor i was just wondering what kind of upgrades i can use on this motor as far as cams exaust heads carbs intake manifold.nothing internal i cant afford to have it down very long any information will help.and also im a chevy and dodge man but i always loved the way those dodge sound with there deep tone why do they have a deeper tone than the chevrolet? thank you
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DWB
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
4/12/2003
16:56:52
| RE: SHOULD I (318 upgrade to 360)
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Go to www.precisionengines.com and go to dodge small block crate engines.
318/330hp Magnum 318 - $3,199.95
318/320hp Street Performer 318 - $2,299.95
340/275hp Rest-Rod - $2,999.95
360/400hp Hot 360 - $3,899.95
360/340hp Magnum 360 - $3,299.95
All the above crate engines are longblocks.
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shaun
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
7/15/2003
02:21:57
| RE: SHOULD I (318 upgrade to 360)
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Man you guys all sound like you have read too many magazines and have not spend enough time actually working on you rigs.A rebuilt 318 with ported heads and intake with a good truck cam, headers and a good exhaust will pull alot and scoot right along in daily driving and will have more torque and horse power than a stock 360.And a hi horse power crate motor is not meant for pulling a boat in a pick up maybe a big block but not a small block.As for cam selection go buy cam makers guide lines they are the pros not your buddy or or some guy who says yep that 550 lift 300 duration cam will pull you boat realy fast ya right.any time you want good throtle respose you have to take everyting in moderation you need to keep up intake velocities at lower rpms and in doing that means keeping ports to a reasonable size and no huge valved heads just like your garden hose open more water comes out but slow put your thumb over it and you decrease the flow but increase the velocity.A rebuild is not a hard thing to do either but just be sure to be carefull and measure everything twice and dont skimp on anything especially machine work as for the porting and polishing just take off the really ruff stuff and lightly blend it all together then polish as smooth as possible be sure not to change the stock port profiles they are shaped the way they are for a reason port match your intake to your heads that alone can make you 10lbs tq in the curve and when pulling that is what it is all about peak tq and hp numbers are misleading the time you are at that rpm is very small most of the time it is probably at 1800 to 4000 rpm and that is where you want all your power who care about 5500 rpm how often are you spinning that fast really?I am sick of the red neck equation bigger is better sometimes but not usually like the 350 in my 78 camaro only makes 165 hp but the 302 in my 90 mustang makes 225 plus the power under the curve in my mustang is much higher due to the long runners in the intake along with the better cam profiles from the roller cam.The 318 in my 25ft motor home pulls my 20ft boat really well so if you doubt a 318 there you go they are capable of alot with some tuning and a little grinding with the proper componets for not alot of cash.
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Try this
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
7/15/2003
04:11:25
| RE: SHOULD I (318 upgrade to 360)
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Go to Car Part.Com and look up for your state or province.
I found 2 318's like the one you need, one here K&K Motors and one here Greenleaf Seguin
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