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99DAK
Dodge Dakota
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6/27/2005
11:59:32

Subject: RE: is amsoil any good?
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Independent Oil Test Results; Which Oil Really is Best?

Four Ball Wear Test, (ASTM D 4172) (60 kg pressure @ 150 deg. C, 1800 rpm for 1 hour duration)

"In the Four Ball Wear Test, the smaller the wear scar, the better the protection.

Tests conducted by an **independent lab**, (the Falex Corporation), show that

AMSOIL series 2000 20W-50 Synthetic Oil provides up to four times more

protection than other popular synthetic and conventional oils."

Ok, VNers, we went through all this last Spring when we got the Amsoil flim-flam the first time. I think what I should just do is say, simply that: The four-ball test is irrelevant when you consider what goes on with oil inside an actual working engine. This is why Amsoil relies on the four-ball test to try to get you to buy their multi-level marketed product rather than testing the stuff in a running engine.

In a real-world situation, like...inside the engine of your Corvette, Red Line is clearly superior. I've been looking around for test data to support that belief. Interestingly, I got my first lead right off the back of an Amsoil bottle. Recently, Amsoil introduced a new race oil with considerable advertising. An aggressive marketing strategy published ASTM D 4172 antiwear test data on each container of oil. This data compared Amsoil to Red Line oil and other industry leaders. I imagine the Red Line people were flattered that Amsoil chose it as a benchmark in synthetic lubrication.

Let's take a sec and talk about the test itself. It is American Standard Test Method (ATSM) # D 4172-82 and is known to lab types as the "four-ball" test. It is a very common test used to quantify the ability of a lubricant to lubricate. Specifically, it is used to determine the relative wear-preventative properties of lubricating fluids under prescribed test conditions. Three 12.7mm (0.5-in) steel balls (AISI standard E- 52100 steel, 64-66 Rockwell-C) are clamped together and covered with the lubricant to be evaluated. A fourth 12.7mm steel ball, called the "top ball," is pressed into the cavity formed by the first three balls with a force of either 147 or 392 Newtons (15 or 40 Kg). The temperature of the lubricant is regulated to 75 deg. C (167 deg F) while the top ball is rotated at 1200 rpm for one hour. Lubricants are compared by using the average size of the scar diameters on the lower three balls. The test can be run under different force, rpm and time parameters, which as you will see, Amsoil and Red Line chose to do. More detailed information is available in ATSM publications that one can find in a good technical library.

On examining the data printed on the Amsoil bottle, I noted, expectedly, that the testing, which Amsoil commissioned and funded, showed Amsoil as being superior to Red Line. I became suspicious, when I read closer then realized how large a "margin of superiority" Amsoil was trying to convince me existed. Remember....buyer beware.

Red Line Synthetic Oil Corporation was also very interested in Amsoil's claims...to the point of running their own battery of tests. First, the obvious: Red Line bought some of the new Amsoil Series 2000 race oil and had it tested according to the ASTM D 4172 Wear Test under the same parameters Amsoil used. Red Line found that unused Amsoil tested as advertised. Next, Red Line departed from the test conditions a bit. They actually tried Amsoil in an engine. Whoa...an amazing concept, eh? Red Line filled the crankcase of a 4.0L V6 engine in a Ford Aerostar van and began driving. They took samples at 338 miles and 919 miles. These samples were compared to those of unused Red Line 20W50 and Red Line 20W50 taken from the same Ford V6 operating under the same conditions as the Amsoil Series 2000 was run, except for one thing....the Red Line 20W50 was run for twenty times the Amsoil mileage, *twenty-thousand miles*. RL 20W50 was also tested after 2252 miles in a 2.0L Turbo in a Saab and RL 40 Wt. race oil was tested after 1300 miles of drag racing and street use in an LT5 out of a ZR-1 that is, coincidentally, by a subscriber to the ZR-1 List.

The results of these tests were just what I expected. While Amsoil might be good stuff coming right out of a bottle; after it's been run in an engine for relatively short periods, it clearly falls short of a lubricant that I would put in my Corvettes or, for that matter, the engines in my other two "beater" cars.

As a manufacturer of high-performance synthetic lubricants interested in making oils that enhance the durability of engines that use them, Red Line does a great deal of testing of antiwear additives, friction reducers and synthetic base oils. There are many components which it could add to its products to make them perform better in ASTM tests on unused oils. However, their goal is selecting a specific oil chemistry that adequately protects a running engine not simply obtaining good test numbers for advertising and marketing purposes.

Red Line had some samples of fresh Amsoil Series 2000 analyzed. Based on that data, they told me they believe some of Amsoil 2000's components are highly chemically reactive, which could allow the oil to react with steel very aggressively in the new oil test and get good numbers. However, when exposed to blowby gases in an operating engine; they think these additives deactivate rapidly, bringing the wear characteristics right back to what you would find with any synthetic oil.





Spali
Dodge Dakota
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6/27/2005
12:36:52

RE: is amsoil any good?
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99Dak, Amsoil's 25,000/35,000 mile is engineered to last beyond these mileage numbers, they just put a safe zone to change it at. If your replacing Amsoil oil at 5k, your wasting your money. The filter has been tested to be replaced every 12,500 miles, being conservative. So if I spend $40-50 for oil/filter for one year on an Amsoil product, doesn't that beat your typical $30 oil change times 3-4 times a year?? The test data is online and it's also on the back of every Amsoil bottle.



spali
Dodge Dakota
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6/27/2005
12:46:11

RE: is amsoil any good?
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99Dak, Amsoil has engines running 400,000 miles or more on their dual filtration setup and some on only one oil change. I wonder if Red line can top that. Guess that proves that theory of Amsoil's oil only being good until it's introduced to blowby gases. How come Red line has never challenged Amsoil then?? No other oil company has challenged them to a test. That should say something. And 30 years of millions and millions of customers. This oil isn't one of these Prolong, Slick 50, etc,etc, type of oils.....all which have lawsuits. Amsoil has yet to have one.



99DAK
Dodge Dakota
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6/27/2005
14:07:24

RE: is amsoil any good?
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I wasn't trying to slam Amsoil - just to show that there is no shortage of claims as to who's product is best. I've had 4 vehicles with well over 200K on them that I got rid of because of failing cosmetics and peripheral things like windows and door hardware - but all of them ran as well (and got the same gas mileage) on the last day as the first. All this on dino oil and 3K oci.
Money is obviously not a factor for any of us involved in this discussion. We all care enough about our trucks to spend an extra $20, $50, or even $100 a year on routine maintenance if it makes things better for our engines. As you pointed out, I'm spending more to get the contaminated oil out of the motor more often, but I just feel better about doing it that way.
Now if Group IV syn was going to give me measureably better gas mileage than Group III then that would be a different story, but there's no real evidence of that (sorry, but Amsoil's word alone isn't enough for me).




stinger
Dodge Dakota
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6/28/2005
12:20:56

RE: is amsoil any good?
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i am just wondering why amsoil isn't "out in the mainstream" more if it's really that good?

the only reason i have heard of amsoil is because i recently got on-line and did a search in yahoo for motor oil and the first 25 or so listings took me to amsoil's site.

but i have never seen an amsoil sign or commercial at a nascar event or an irl event, both of which i frequent often.

and if amsoil is that good, then why doesn't at least one auto manufacturer use it as factory fill?

i don't mean to sound negative towards amsoil, but these questions are what's really on my mind.

and the way they sell amsoil reminds me of the amway products of a few years back, and that also bothers me....alot.

any helpfull responses from "people in the know" about my questions would be a great help. not only to me, but probably alot of others as well.

thanks alot for the info,
stinger







99DAK
Dodge Dakota
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6/28/2005
15:34:15

RE: is amsoil any good?
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There's no doubt in my mind that Amsoil is a fine motor oil. The trouble with the Amsoil vs whatever argument is that for the vast majority of us it's a moot point. With regular 3K-5K oil/filter changes (with any Group II or III oil)you won't see any significant difference in engine wear until well past 200K miles unless a) the vehicle is in severe service all the time and/or b) you live in a place like Alaska or Death Valley.
As to extended drain intervals, as I said before, you still need a filter change every +/-5K, and if I have to drain the crankcase anyway I'd rather refill with fresh oil, even if it costs me a little more in the long run (but that's just me).
The only clear consensus on gas mileage is that synthetics (meaning Group III and IV) reduce internal friction but again, no way to definitively say that any one brand helps mpg more than any other (YMMV).
Believe me, I've done alot of searching on this topic and found no absolute answer, probably because there isn't one.

Ok, ready to meet my fate at the hands of The Defenders Of Amsoil.



dan morrell
Dodge Dakota
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1/25/2009
15:46:37

RE: is amsoil any good?
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Amsoil is Awsome Check out this Site
www.lubesupply.org



Steven Roark
Dodge Dakota
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1/25/2009
19:19:57

RE: is amsoil any good?
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Don't forget to buy from me.



Steve Roark
Dodge Dakota
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1/25/2009
22:21:47

RE: is amsoil any good?
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and I'll blow you for every case you buy

so hurry an place your order now



LOL
Dodge Dakota
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1/26/2009
12:27:56

RE: is amsoil any good?
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puts new emphasis on amsoil sucks!

& thanks but

allways used mobil1 nearly 200,000 miles
not a single problem

and ive got a wife for the other
thanks for the offer though



ecdak
Dodge Dakota
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1/28/2009
20:07:39

RE: is amsoil any good?
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http://www.dakota-durango.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=105



N56629
GenIII
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1/29/2009
09:49:01

RE: is amsoil any good?
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Looks like the amsoil scamer is at it again. Pretends to be everyone but himself. That's how you know that Amsoil sucks. That's also why Amsoil was kicked off this forum.

There are other sites that are not attacked by Amsoil reps.

http://www.bionicdodge.com/bionic/index.php
http://forums.delphiforums.com/dakotart/start

Even good old http://dakotausa.com/ is free from Amsoil scamers





ya but
Dodge Dakota
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1/29/2009
16:59:01

RE: is amsoil any good?
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over here you can become a paying member
and put up with the stupid scamsoil scams,
crap and spam



N56629.
Dodge Dakota
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1/29/2009
18:29:08

RE: is amsoil any good?
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I remember now. all the individual site sponsor advertisers were replaced with google ads because this site is full of flamers and kids and can't generate any new members to pay registration fees.

ecdak, i will post this again. sorry for my comments

http://www.dakota-durango.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=105




N56629
GenIII
 User Profile


1/29/2009
21:58:15

RE: is amsoil any good?
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N56629., I should be flattered that so many people like you want to be me even though they are just cowardly little fags. roflmao



Steve Roark
Dodge Dakota
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1/29/2009
22:34:08

RE: is amsoil any good?
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I'll blow you for every case you buy

so hurry an place your order now!


and we now make blinker fluid
check your level you might be low
and we make the best



N56629.
Dodge Dakota
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1/30/2009
05:44:43

RE: is amsoil any good?
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When I am beat, I resort to calling people fags.





jem44
Dodge Dakota
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1/25/2012
17:29:41

RE: is amsoil any good?
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WOW I am amazed that Mr. Dakota made the statement
in his June 28th posting, that he is of the
opinion one should change there oil filter every
5,000 miles, but then the says "if I have to drain
the crankcase anyway I rather refill with fresh
oil". I have been changing my oil filters for the
past 40 years, and I never had to drain my crank
case to do so. This causes me to wonder about all
of his other comments about Red Line vs AMSOIL. In
his June 27th posting he goes through a the "four
ball wear test", and in the last paragraph in the
last sentence he says the people at Red Line told
him "THEY THINK" the additives deactivate. Now
that's the type of testing I would want done on
any lubricant I was going to use. The manufacturer
THINKS it will be OK to use in my equipment.

AMSOIL runs six different test, comparing it
against eleven different oils. The tests are: Thin
Film Oxygen Uptake, NOACK Volatility, Pour Point,
Total Base Number, Cold Cranking Vicosity, and the
Four Ball Wear test. The only other oils to come
close to AMSOIL, is Mobil One has the same Pour
Point, and Valvoline SynPower test the same in the
Four Ball Wear test. Castrol GTX is 1/100th of a
point higher then these other two.

I became an AMSOIL dealer in 1981. At the time I
have a 1977 Honda Civic. I had about 80,000 miles
on it when I change it over to AMSOIL in the
engine and transmission. Every 5,000 miles I
changed the oil filter and at the same time ran an
oil sample to see how it was holding up. I
continued doing so every 5,000 miles until I had
25,000 miles on the oil. I change the oil and
filter, but I still sent in a sample of the old
oil, and it came back as 'quite a bit of dirt' in
it, but I could have driven on it further. At
210,000 miles it blew a head gasket and the seats
were in bad shape so I sold it and bought a 1984
Ford Escort Diesel. After 3,000 miles I change
over to AMSOIL in the engine and transmission. I
continued with a filter change and sending in an
oil sample every 5,000 miles. At 20,000 the sample
came back with a high reading dirt and other
abrasives, so I dropped back to changing the oil
every 15,000 miles. I put 250,000 miles on it,
before my son was involved in an accident and the
insurance company bought it from me. I then bought
a 1993 Ford Escort and changed oil every 25,000
miles with a filter change every 5. I just sold it
with 207,000 miles on it. I was doing the same on
my wife's car, except she didn't drove 25,000
miles a year, so I changed her's once a year. Not
once have I had any problems with any of AMSOIL's
products. I haven't tried to figure out how much
money I've saved over all of those years, but I'm
sure it is quite a bit.

I just wish when someone tries to compare
products, they would come up with something better
than "They Think". I'm surprised someone didn't
tell Mr. Dakota he didn't have to drain his crank
case when he changed his oil filter, but we all
learn as we get older.



SPAM
Dodge Dakota
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1/26/2012
13:23:05

RE: is amsoil any good?
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SPAM



SPAM
Dodge Dakota
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1/26/2012
13:24:17

RE: is amsoil any good?
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SPAM AMSOIL SUCKS!!!



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