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Chip Marshall
Dodge Dakota
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6/17/2005
22:27:58
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 Subject: Cumulative Changes
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I have been trolling for performance upgrades for the past few weeks. As far as I have been able to tell, every performance upgrade available on the market gives you between 9 and 20 extra HP. Think about that... Is it possible? Let's add it up...
Throttle body spacer: 9 HP
FIPK: 9 HP
Performance Chip: 9 HP
Headers: 9 HP
Cat Back: 9 HP
Just with these mods, the minimum gain is 45 horsepower! If those numbers were true, don't you think that you would see the use on the NASCAR circuit more frequently?
Here is my scoop:
I am not a speed freak. I live in an area where there are a BUNCH of old folks who think that the key to longevity is driving 5MPH below the speed limit. I normally try to be faster off the start at a red light than anyone else. That is my basis for performance upgrades. The secondary basis is gas mileage and I have not seen much of that. (Not while driving around my little town and beach resort community, anyway...)
So, what does that leave me?
Efficiency.
I want to make my engine work to capacity.
Increasing the air flow (not just spinning it) will give me a little gain. Cooling the air and letting it flow with fewer restrictions will help. Changing the Y-pipe will let exhaust move faster (soon to come).
All of these items were probably tested individually on high performance engines where 9 HP improvement was "chump change".
What I am trying to say is this: Look for the small, cumulative changes that allow your engine to work better, and reap the benefits from that.
Cheers,
Chip
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NASCAR
Dodge Dakota
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6/18/2005
07:42:18
|  RE: Cumulative Changes
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Let's get it right Chip !
Your # for the spacer - way too high.
Your # for the FIPK - a little too high.
But don't think for a minute that the engine builders at NASCAR aren't doing anything they can find to optimize induction.
Performance chip ? NASCAR is optimizing spark advance at least as much as a performance chip would, just in a different way.
Your # for the cat back is again too high. And if you don't think those stock cars have headers and a well tuned exhaust, you ought to have your head examined !
Maybe NASCAR wasn't such a good example for you to use ?
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Chip Marshall
Dodge Dakota
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6/18/2005
11:59:32
|  RE: Cumulative Changes
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Of course they do! My point is that I am not doing these mods on a Nascar car. I am doing this on a stock engine that can't match the performance of a Nascar car.
As for the numbers - yep, they are too high. But not according to the advertisements for the products.
The advantage that machinists and race car builders have is that they can build their own mods and tweak them for all their worth. The mods that you and I are doing are great for the "driveway enthusiast" - and DO increase performance, but not to the numbers that are advertised.
As for being "picky" about the numbers... close enough for government work and 4 glasses of Dewars.
Like I said (sort of), making the engine more efficient is the goal of most of these mods. From that efficiency the average owner can expect to gain performance and mileage - but not in the numbers advertised.
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RIV
Dodge Dakota
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6/19/2005
02:05:27
| RE: Cumulative Changes
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Dude you need to read the fine print. Sorry but an engine is nothing more than a glorified air pump (realy). Getting it to breathe is crucial.Spark is a minor concern in the larger spectrum of things. I do recount on the simple fact that spark is a componennt in modern emissions, There is a little power to be found, but alas the key will always be air flow.
Tellin it like it is.
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N56629
Dodge Dakota
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6/19/2005
08:09:27
| RE: Cumulative Changes
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"As for the numbers - yep, they are too high. But not according to the advertisements for the products."
"All of these items were probably tested individually on high performance engines where 9 HP improvement was "chump change"."
You don't even have to read the fine print. None of them gaurantee 9hp or any other figure for that matter. You will will see phrases such as - "up to 9hp" - or something to that effect.
The dyno tests are probably real. They take a vehicle with a known intake or exhaust deficiency, install their product, and then test it. The outcome is nearly predictable.
Just common sense should tell you that not every vehicle will respond in the same way and give the same numbers. That's the advantage of boards like this, you can find out what other people have experienced with a specific product in a specific application.
As to whether they use high performance engines for their tests, I don't know, but I doubt it. The manufacturer has already worked very hard to optimize these engines. Expecting big gains from small changes just isn't logical.
" Changing the Y-pipe will let exhaust move faster (soon to come)."
Actually, less restriction reduces the speed of the exhaust.
As always, work on your intake first and then worry about the exhaust.
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92Dak
Dodge Dakota
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6/19/2005
10:27:08
| RE: Cumulative Changes
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"Throttle body spacer: 9 HP" - On MPI engines the only thing a spacer does is delay throttle response. It helps atomize the fuel better for Carbs and TBI engines but is just an expensive paper weight for the magnum engines.
"FIPK: 9 HP" - I don't care what anyone thinks, a cold air setup will never net you anything over 5 hp. The biggest thing I see are people going from their original dirty and old paper filter to a high flow set up, then people see a large difference. If we are talking about a K&N oem set-up versus FIPK then maybe 2-3 hp.
"Headers: 9 HP"
"Cat Back: 9 HP " - If your going to go with headers you may as well ditch your cats. I'm sure you can find a garage that would slap a sticker on your truck if you just slip them a few extra bucks. Headers and cats seem contradictory to me. Not only that but a cat back exhaust doesn't really free up much horsepower for the price (2-3 at the max.)
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Android287
GenIII
6/19/2005
11:02:00
| RE: Cumulative Changes
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Chip what engine do you have?
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Speedy
Dodge Dakota
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6/19/2005
14:02:19
| RE: Cumulative Changes
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"Actually, less restriction reduces the speed of the exhaust"
ACTUALLY,,, The size of the exhaust pipe reduces the speed of the exhaust, CAT's mufflers and other exhaust obstructions just add to the problem. A 1 1/2" exhaust pipe will have good exhaust speed and scavaging at low RPM's, but will be restrictive at upper RPM's. While on the other hand a 4" exhaust pipe will have poor exhaust speed and scavaging at low RPM's, but will not be restrictive at high RPM's. It's a balancing act finding the correct size of exhaust pipe that has good low RPM exhaust speed and low back pressure at high RPM's.
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Chip Marshall
Dodge Dakota
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6/19/2005
17:47:40
| RE: Cumulative Changes
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Hey folks,
Doing this sans the alcohol, so maybe a bit clearer...
What I have been trying to say is that advertising usually hypes the product. If the product actually did not work, I wouldn't think that any of you would use it - whatever the product.
I don't believe in the advertised gains, even though I installed several products to make my engine run more efficiently.
I have a 2000 CC with 4.7 Mag. Heavy duty capacity everything and extra capacity. Everything is pretty much stock except for the mods that I just installed. The only mod on the body is the factory fog lamps that I installed. I should have gone after-market with them, but they work for what they are.
This truck was my present to myself for being advanced to Chief Petty Officer while stationed aboard the USS Constellation. I actually bought it while transiting to the Arabian Gulf in the summer of 1999 and it was waiting for me in San Diego upon return from deployment. I retired from the Navy in April and now, finally, have time to spend on my truck. I am not planning on making it a show truck - I have always preferred the "sleeper" - but I need it to last for another four to six years. That way I beat the financing people can save for a bigger truck with a Hemi or a big diesel.
Anyway... I just installed the TB from the Fastman and put in the 360 Intakez. I also received my Superchips tuner and have tuned it for performance. I have received big gains in power, mostly due to the tuner, but have noticed that my engine is running about 10 degrees cooler than before, probably due to the less restrictive intake. Sounds cool too...
I have noticed a solid 3 MPG increase in mileage, and that is what I most wanted.
After reading about the exhaust manifolds on this forum and talking to the mechanics at the local Dodge dealer, I was not going to change them. Unforunately, I have an exhaust leak and may as well put something better on there if I am going to go to the trouble to change them out. I am going to get less restrictive cats, because that strikes a good balance between efficiency and being legal. But not until the end of summer.
The only other mods that I will consider doing are performance heads and cams, but I want to "study up" on that type of thing so that I can understand it id do them myself.
Not much for body mods, except for a carved wooden tailgate the advertises my business "www.marshallsmillwork.com". Once I get mine done, I will probably offer them for sale to the general public. But I digress...
I hope this explains more of where I am at and what I am thinking to you guys. I really didn't mean to piss on anyones daisys. Just trying to make my truck better.
Cheers!
Chip
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N56629
Dodge Dakota
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6/19/2005
22:57:09
| RE: Cumulative Changes
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"ACTUALLY,,, The size of the exhaust pipe reduces the speed of the exhaust,"
That's pretty much what I was saying. Increasing the size reduces the exhaust speed and reducing the size increases the exhaust speed.
"CAT's mufflers and other exhaust obstructions just add to the problem. A 1 1/2" exhaust pipe will have good exhaust speed and scavaging at low RPM's, but will be restrictive at upper RPM's. While on the other hand a 4" exhaust pipe will have poor exhaust speed and scavaging at low RPM's, but will not be restrictive at high RPM's. It's a balancing act finding the correct size of exhaust pipe that has good low RPM exhaust speed and low back pressure at high RPM's."
You can get a high flow cat that will out flow most any muffler so that's a poor excuse to eliminate it and risk a hefty fine.
As for the 4 inch exhaust, it kind of depends on where it starts. After 36-40 inches from the head it doesn't make any difference what size pipes you have. Most people seem to use shorty headers these day, instead of full length headers, so that point is rather mote anyway.
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