| From | Message |
ApacheDakota
Dodge Dakota
7/01/2001
09:33:09
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 Subject: 4.7L 2001 4x4 QC owners Performance Mods
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Message:
OK dudes I want opinions of owners of the same truck to give me recomendations on mods for my Truck.....No offense to Bernd but how is he the expert on my truck when he's forcing air into a v6? I want to put a cat back system that has to be SS do to sea air and i want best spark plugs.....I am waiting on K&n to quit smokin grass Do the TB spacers work? Should I put a chip in? Does a MDS system or Jacobs do anything?
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Ken
Dodge Dakota
7/01/2001
09:52:15
| RE: 4.7L 2001 4x4 QC owners Performance Mods
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Message:
You are another typical moron how many
vehicles have SS exhaust where you live? Yes
I think you should order a msd or jacobs
ignition system for your DIS ignition :)
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kennungesser
Gen III
7/01/2001
10:39:52
| RE: 4.7L 2001 4x4 QC owners Performance Mods
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Message:
Apache,I think you allready have a stainless steel system under there.
Allso,Kennie Bell did a test on the dyno,one with the factory exhaust , and one with the factory exhaust removed from the cat back. I belive they only gained 1/2 hp with it off,saying Dodge did their homework on the exhaust. This test was done on the 4.7 . I may just go with a ss muffler for a more aggressive sound.
Good Luck
Kenneth l Nungesser
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sandman
Dodge Dakota
7/01/2001
11:33:51
| RE: 4.7L 2001 4x4 QC owners Performance Mods
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Message:
I know that I will get flamed here for what I am about to say, but I want to make sure that some of the younger people on this board get to here the another idea on modifing a vechile. I think alot of people waste alot of money on mods that do little to truly improve performance of thier vechiles. I belive that if you are not seeing a minium of 100% increase of rear wheel HP&Torque then you are just throwing your money away. Alot of things have to work together to see large improvements. You have to drasticly increase the amount of air and fuel that the engine can inhale and compress to increase power. Little things like freeing up the breathing on the intake side are fine and realtively eay but buy themselfs the do very little. Todays intake manifolds and cyclinder heads are not as restrictive as they were in years past. The power is usualy being lost in fuel mapping and cam shaft profiles. With todays newer engines low bost levels around 8 psi can realy perk up the performance of an engine. I have not built a dodge truck engine yet. I mostly do imports that run upward of 26 psi of boost but the fundementals are all the same.You can get around a 100% improvement with a low boost ken bell SC kit for around $2500-$3600 or you can waste $1500-$2500 on bolt on's and see a 1%-10% improvement at the rear wheels. I will say that alot of these bolt on's are great for an engine that you intend to SC(Super Charge) or TC(Turbo Charge). Oh I almost forgot lets not forget about NITROUS it works great on normaly asperaited or forced indution set ups. It is also a realy cheap way to gain alot of HP. It is realatively safe. It is only hard on your engine if you let a lean condition happen. You can set up a NOS system with a NOS timer and a couple of aux. injectors and aux fuel pump to fog fuel into some part of a common intake tract or air box to prevent a lean condition relatively cheaply. P.S. Leave the daily driver stock and get a cheap project car or truck to play with. When you finish your project vechile and work all of the bugs out then it can become your dail driver while you begin to work on the other new truck that was once the dail driver. I learned this the hard way when I was a young man and decided to put a corvette motor into a Toyota 4Runner while I had 10 days off from college. It was not an easy task!
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Hawkeye
Dakota Enthusiast
7/01/2001
13:26:03
| RE: 4.7L 2001 4x4 QC owners Performance Mods
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Message:
Sandman,
I want to understand here. You are saying that unless I can see a 100% increase in HP then a mod isnt worth it. My 4.7 makes 235 HP (at the crank) stock. 100% of 235 is 235. That means you are saying that I should have 470 HP out of my engine or the mod(s) are not worth it. I wish I could find something that will give me that much power. I am married and have a 23 month old, a 7 month old, 2 dogs, house payment, My wife's truck paymnt, My truck payment, and all the bills that go along with having a family. We both work to barely make ends meet. There is no way I could afford a "project vehicle". My daily driver is my project vehicle. If something will give me 5 more hp than what I started with then it is worth it to me. Thats what I and I am sure others come here for. To see what we can do to make our trucks better with what we can afford, basing some of our decision making on others first hand experience. Some of us have to make the mods we can to make our trucks as good as we can with what little we have. I was able to save up enough money to get a Jet chip for mine. It took me 7 months to save up enough to get it. It did not give me 50 hp, 30 hp, or prolly even 25 hp. But I am very very happy with what power I did get out of it. The extra little bit of power is well worth the $193 I had to spend to get it. I can save up $193 a lot easier than $1000 or more. This is not a flame, just honest truth. I dont want some of the "younger" guys thinking that if they dont spend a ton of money and instantly gain tons of HP that they are wasting their money. Thats just not so. Again, no flame here, just and honest reply.
'00 QC 4x4
4.7 3.55 LSD
32x11.50 BFG AT's
Green Thunder
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Art
Dodge Dakota
7/01/2001
16:15:44
| RE: 4.7L 2001 4x4 QC owners Performance Mods
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Message:
sandman you cant say either you get a 100% increase or its not worth it now can you?A 25% increase would be huge, I doubt the K-belle gives you that much HP and superchargers drastically cut engine life down and nitrous is even worse from what I know any engine that has a compresion ring to close to the top of piston is askin for a meltdown with nitrous and isnt 9-1 compresion a little too much for a supercgarged engine?what ive done so far has been positive all way around the thing I really want for this 4.7 is a cam the stock cam is (intake 243.5)(exhaust253.7)obviously this isnt measured @50 but much to be improved there and the worst thing is that rev limiter need a fix for that.otherwise sandman I have learned from your posts BTW saw you said you work for GM,why did you buy a Dakota? and hawkeye does that jet chip raise the rev limiter?
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Hawkeye
Dakota Enthusiast
7/01/2001
16:46:42
| RE: 4.7L 2001 4x4 QC owners Performance Mods
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Message:
Art, I dont think that it does. My tach is yellow from 5500 to 6000 and red from 6000 to 7000. I have seen it go all the way to 5600 before shifting (automatic) but havent hit the rev limiter yet. I thought it would be around 5500 but its not on mine or my friends. I really wish someone would come out with something to change the shift points a little (hint hint hypertech). On my 99 F150 4x4 I could change the shift points just a little by reseting the PCM and then getting right in and driving the fool out of it. Hasnt had the same affect on the Dak.
'00 QC 4x4
4.7 3.55 LSD
32x11.50 BFG AT's
Green Thunder
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Sandman
Dodge Dakota
7/02/2001
19:16:55
|  RE: 4.7L 2001 4x4 QC owners Performance Mods
IP: Logged
Message:
I posted what I did because I think alot of modification are a waste of money and time unless you plan on competing in sanctioned or non sanctioned raceing events with some form of forced induction or nitros. If you spend $400 on a digital ignition system,$200 on a cold induction kit,$350 on a larg throttle body $600-800 for larger injectors, $550 for a custom flash and another $350 for a set of cams. You have spent $2350-$2550 and you might see an improvment of 15-35% or your hodge podge of parts my not do much at all. I did not include head work, intake work, shipping handeling, taxs.......If you put that same money into the bank for a while you can buy a SC/TC system that has been designed to work in conjuntion with what is already on your engine and you will know exactly what you are getting and paying for.Most SC/TC sytems from major manufactures are well engineired and they have done all the hard work for you. Most that I have installed gave some where between 40%-110% gain at the rear wheel dependeing on what eles haad been done to the car or truck. Most of these systems where set for 8 psi. If I am can going to modify a vechile for my own use I will not even think about touching a vechile unless I plan to double it's output. If someone is paying me to work on their car I will do just about anything they want from mild to wild.
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Hawkeye
Dakota Enthusiast
7/02/2001
19:26:09
| RE: 4.7L 2001 4x4 QC owners Performance Mods
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Message:
I guess what I really dont understand is the whole Doubling your output. I dont know of a supercharger or anything else out there that can double your output. Like I said, thats 470 + HP on a 4.7. If I could get double my power out of a supercharger then yes, I would spend my money on just that. I'd be dumb not to.
'00 QC 4x4
4.7 3.55 LSD
32x11.50 BFG AT's
Green Thunder
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Art
Dodge Dakota
7/02/2001
19:38:35
| RE: 4.7L 2001 4x4 QC owners Performance Mods
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Message:
Your exagerating a bit sandman,470 hp out of 4.7 would take alot more than 3500 bucks and what about the rest of the drivetrain to handle that beast.I would be very happy with 270hp outa the 4.7 would make it just right and in my opinion were just a cam away from that,these 4.7s have better intakes,heads and ignition that the 5.9 has ,I emailed superchips the makers of the diablo chips,havnt heard from them yet tho,BTW anyone know just what the #s are from that k-belle supercharger for the 4.7?
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sandman
Dodge Dakota
7/02/2001
19:39:00
| RE: 4.7L 2001 4x4 QC owners Performance Mods
IP: Logged
Message:
No art 9.5:1 is not too high for SC/TC. It is rather common on rice burners. You just have to run an intercooler and some good gas. Crowler played around with a static 16:1 compresion ratios with pump gas with out detonation problems. The only time nitros is realy hard on engines is if you let the engine run lean. I just do not see the point in risking durability, driveabilty and gas milliage for meager performance gains. The aero dynamics of a truck are so bad that little performance gains are going to be eaten up by drag and friction losses. I am not trying to make any enemys here I just wanted to tell it the way I see it. I will not try to talk you guys out of performance mods any more. I think that if more people did rear wheel dyno runs after each mod the would soon quite spending hard earned money on alot of varios bolt ons and even more so if the ran their machine in the 1/4 mile after each mod with an accurate non biased timer.
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Hawkeye
Dakota Enthusiast
7/02/2001
19:56:24
| RE: 4.7L 2001 4x4 QC owners Performance Mods
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Message:
Sandman, Just one other view, I dont have any wind drag when crawling through the sand and mud or pulling someone out that is stuck. My rpms get right into the power band then. An extra 15Hp and some more torque can really make the difference between getting stuck or not, and pulling someone out or not. I think I see part of what you are saying though. It does take a certain amount of HP to over come wind drag at increasing speeds. But for a 4x4 guy like me, it is a game of close differences. An extra inch of clearance can make the differance of getting stuck or not and an extra 5 ft lbs of torque can do the same. I dont really race my truck. If I ever do it is stop light to stop light or just keeping from getting cut off in traffic. A little extra power or a little quicker launch can make the diff here too. My dyno is if I can go across and or through the same areas and obstacles I have before a mod any easier after. Dont want you to think I am arguing with you. Just discussing 2 different viewpoints.
'00 QC 4x4
4.7 3.55 LSD
32x11.50 BFG AT's
Green Thunder
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Art
Dodge Dakota
7/02/2001
19:58:09
| RE: 4.7L 2001 4x4 QC owners Performance Mods
IP: Logged
Message:
You gota like performance or you wouldnt be here sandman,ive really only done 2 things the mbrp dual rear split that was as much for the look and sound as it was for performance and the z-tube and both have made it better for the price,I know Im goin by the old butt dyno but it is better and Im gettin beter millage,threw in some 3923 plugs today I always run a heat range lower on any car Ive ever owned,waiting for the 180 tstat just cause there is no reason to let your engine get to 195 before it opens,you know its true sandman the little things do count when added up,my drivabillity hasnt been affected for the worse in anyway.Its getting better all the time,I couldnt spin the tires without dumping the clutch and now I can,man I tested alot of 4x4`s before going with the dakota and this truck is dam sweet compared to the rest out there not to mention the look,Dakota rules
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Doug McCoach
Dodge Dakota
7/03/2001
00:51:48
| RE: 4.7L 2001 4x4 QC owners Performance Mods
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Message:
I've seen dyno results for the 4.7L prototype sc from kb, @ 6 lbs it showed a gain of 100hp at the crank & approx 80 rwhp. The cost is $3950 if you do it yourself. BTY, if no one ever made a mistake by wasting $ on a useless mod than none of us would ever benefit from it, right? I agree, there is no mod that gives 100% hp improvement, an engine swap maybe. One thing I've learned in life Sandman is that if you tell the fisherman that fishing is a waste of money/time, he may just turn the other cheek & if the time arises that you ever need advice on catching fish he may just turn the other cheek again. Sandman is right though, we are all wasting our money just to gain a few extra ponies but I for one am a relatively intelligent person who is learning one hell of a lot about my truck & cars in general & now do most of the maintainence work on my truck & my wife's car so while I throw money away on a few ponies I save by doing my own work. Also, lets not forget that in the near future Dodge is releasing a high Performance 4.7L V8 that will put out 270 hp so we will all be able to either get the parts from Mopar or get them long before from the aftermarket. Thats only a 15% increase, sounds real good on paper though & I bet most of us would pay a few bucks for 40 more hp. I agree that certain mods don't seem to improve hp but how about when you drive at night & the temp is a cool 70 degrees or less & the truck just seems to have more pep than ever, well, we just want that all the time don't we? So any little gain is welcome isn't it? I agree that the cat back exhaust was the most $ for the least gain but it sounds radical. The new tb to come out from F&B will be exspensive but will offer some nice gains & eventually cams & ported heads & pistons & all that will be available too. We are all just a little to impatient I think. I don't know, is a $12,000 Hemi worth the money for 500+ hp? Do you drive a car like that to work everyday? I bet if I had that type of engine, I would still be buying exspensive shit to gain a few extra ponies, its an addiction! Can't wait for the 5.7L V8 Hemi to become available, can you say trade in? I saw a recent article with a picture of it, not very impressive looking but they mentioned that the street version that would be put into the Ram or Dakota or whatever would be detuned from 350hp to 330 hp to pass emissions. Oh well, we'll just put a custom intake/exhaust on it to get back the lost ponies! Tehe....
2000 QC 4x4 Auto 3.55's 4.7L V8
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Bob
Dodge Dakota
7/03/2001
08:51:41
| RE: 4.7L 2001 4x4 QC owners Performance Mods
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Message:
If you want some improvements that work and are not to much money,added a Factory R/T exhaust and a drop in K&N filter.Good buys for your money.
Zoom zoom zoom
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Bernd
Gen III
7/03/2001
09:00:15
| RE: 4.7L 2001 4x4 QC owners Performance Mods
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Message:
Speed Costs Money...How fast do you want to go? (And how much are you ready to spend)
Rules to live by on ANY power enhancer/adder for ANY engine.
A 10% gain in useable HP is normally a good modification. Superchargers will get you about 50-60% more on the average (with 40% being the norm for 6# boost).
Doesn't matter if it's a 3.9/4.7/5.2/5.9L (or any other 4-stroke)...air in, air out, and getting it that way as efficiently as possible (and increasing VE%) will get you more power.
1997 Dodge Dakota SLT - V6
Supercharged @ 10#
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sandman
Dodge Dakota
7/04/2001
00:08:46
| RE: 4.7L 2001 4x4 QC owners Performance Mods
IP: Logged
Message:
Art you are cutting and pasteing my words out of context"figurtively speaking". I did not say that you could double you hp for $3500.00 that is just silly.You have to start with an extremly restrictive engine to see that type of improvment for $3500.00. I have seen people that did just about every other modifcation under the sun and saw next to no gains until they went with forced induction. All of the other mods realy made the forced induction realy effective. What I was trying to point out is that a well designed plan of attack for building power is the way to go. When all of the parts are designed to work in conjunction with one another you can get more bang for your buck than piece milling un-tested unrealated parts from many different manufactures.Their is no getting around the fact that you have to cram more fuel and air into the cylinders to increase power or increase the number of power pulses per second or both. Art I can tell you do not tune rice burners. Page 29 0f Turbo Magazine July 2001 vol.17 No. 17 886 REAR WHEEL DYNOED HP from a 3.0 liter turbo charged straight six in a Toyota Supra Turbo. It is only running 18psi of boost and a mix of methanol/gasoline. If you live in Texas give Power House Raceing a call at (903)683-4320. I am sure they will help you out.
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sandman
Dodge Dakota
7/04/2001
00:30:48
| RE: 4.7L 2001 4x4 QC owners Performance Mods
IP: Logged
Message:
Guys I am not argueing either. I am trying to be the voice of reason. Heck I love performance. I just hate the thought of a Dad that does not know alot about cars getting suckered into spending hard earned diaper money on mods that will probably not help in in the ways that he will most likely use his truck. I am actualy saveing money and planning my next project vechile. I have been working with mechanical and electronic fuel injection since 1988. I actualy did not see a carburator or work on a carb until I was almost finished with my aprenticeship in Germany. I love the Pharse MOOO POOWER ARG ARG ARG!!! I guess I have an all or nothing personality. If I am going to do something I do it big or not at all. I have also learned from experince to leave the daily driver alone. I was 2 weeks late for college once because I was busy fabricateing some parts that had broke while I was home visting my mom and dad on spring break 1200 miles from my college. If my ride had been stock I could have gone down to a part store or the dealer and bought what I needed to get back on the road. P.S. It is damm hard to find ATF+4. My local Amsoil dealer is on a 6 week vaction so I am going to have to either get regualr ATF+4 or order Amsoil from another dealer and have it shiped. I hate the thought of paying shipping on ATF.
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Art
Dodge Dakota
7/04/2001
01:34:02
| RE: 4.7L 2001 4x4 QC owners Performance Mods
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Message:
Thats very impressive sandman886 RW/HP isnt that more than a indy car puts out?Im not sayin that u cant do it but dam there is no way in hell that engine is anything related to what toyota put out stock and just what did it cost for this machine,surely not a couple grand,im sure its very impressive but jsut what did it run in the 1/4 any idea?I dont have any meth/gas mix filling stations around here,no I never really tuned a ricer not my style.Im into the look as much as anything and ricers just dont cut it,I tested that supercharged nissan truck,wah peice of crap,you still never answered me sandman why did you buy a dakota when u work for GM?I actually think your a smart guy,just a little ummmmm you know guess Im the same way
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Art
Dodge Dakota
7/04/2001
01:34:19
| RE: 4.7L 2001 4x4 QC owners Performance Mods
IP: Logged
Message:
Thats very impressive sandman886 RW/HP isnt that more than a indy car puts out?Im not sayin that u cant do it but dam there is no way in hell that engine is anything related to what toyota put out stock and just what did it cost for this machine,surely not a couple grand,im sure its very impressive but jsut what did it run in the 1/4 any idea?I dont have any meth/gas mix filling stations around here,no I never really tuned a ricer not my style.Im into the look as much as anything and ricers just dont cut it,I tested that supercharged nissan truck,wah peice of crap,you still never answered me sandman why did you buy a dakota when u work for GM?I actually think your a smart guy,just a little ummmmm you know guess Im the same way
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dfischer
Dodge Dakota
7/04/2001
02:34:32
| RE: 4.7L 2001 4x4 QC owners Performance Mods
IP: Logged
Message:
kinda agree w/bernd.
fwiw, blown engine increases TEND to be about equal to base hp X (boost bls + 15)/15 *.85
that is, 85% effeciency (hey its a general number.. kvetch about intercooler and etc.. later)
times base hp multiplied by percent of boost over plain old air presure (about 15 lbs).
So, 6 lbs is in the area of 40%, I suppose, (go bernd), and 100% increase would require in excess (recall the effeciency loss) of 15 bls boost, of which no stock 4.7 engine would live long under, to say nothing of the octane, timing, heat, gasket, etc... problems.
I do, BTW, get the premise, but and its intent, while good, is mayber a little over-zealous.
Lastly, why didn't you just buy the 360?
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sandman
Dodge Dakota
7/04/2001
15:20:23
| RE: 4.7L 2001 4x4 QC owners Performance Mods
IP: Logged
Message:
I realy have no idea exactly what indy cars hp output is. I know that back in the mid -late 80's before exotic fuels "whitchs brew" where baned that the little 1.2 liter volkswagen was exceedeing 1200HP and was running way in excess of 14000RPM's with full boost allowed by rules of Formula 1. You can easily push 500 HP out of the stock bottom end of a Toyota Supra Turbos engine. Once you excede 500 hp you realy have to get different pistons and crank. The only real problem that these 3.0L engines have is that the rear main seal tends to leak a little if you pass 500HP. You might know Craig T. Nelson. He was the actor that stared on the show COACH. He uses 4.0 liter lexus engines that are preped by PPI for his IMSA GT raceing team the screming eagles. His engines use mechanical fuel injection and are tuned to put out 600-800 hp depending on the course and they do not use any form of forced induction.
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Art
Dodge Dakota
7/04/2001
23:04:17
| RE: 4.7L 2001 4x4 QC owners Performance Mods
IP: Logged
Message:
Jeez sandman your talking flat out race cars,I dont even see the link between a race car and a little tweaking of a daily driver,we both know if you have the money and time you can do anything to a car sure those engines can put out huge #s but also need a huge wallet and a pit crew,were geting way off topic
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