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03:40:35 - 05/04/2024
Dakota Performance
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Jimmy
Dodge Dakota
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7/20/2004
10:49:52
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 Subject: Plastic Radiators
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I have a gen II magnum, bought it last year and predicted the failure of the stock plastic radiator. Good thing the truck has guages because sure enough the radiator split, I was able to massage a nice brass radiator in place of the stock plastic without loosing the ac. I've had problems with the plastic radiators before and warped a head. If you have plastic I'd loose it right away unless you have a warranty.
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another mark
Dodge Dakota
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7/20/2004
19:39:22
|  RE: Plastic Radiators
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hmm interesting
any gen 3 people got a problem with your radiators?
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IntenseDak39
*GenIII*
7/20/2004
20:26:39
| RE: Plastic Radiators
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the failure probably wasnt caused by the radiator... probably by maintaince or other problem in the cooling system.
The radiators are aluminum and have plastic end tanks on them. They run much cooler than copper radiators and are more efficient.
6.6 Lt. Big Block, 727 TF shift kit, 452 heads, edelbrock 750 cfm, .513/.513 284/300 crower cam, comp cams springs, comp cams pushrods, 1.5 roller rockers, dp intake, mopar ignition, mopar windage tray, dual exhaust w/ 40 series flowmasters, 4.10 gears, coilover drag suspension, approx, 3500 lbs
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Kowalski
GenIII
7/21/2004
06:34:38
| RE: Plastic Radiators
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No problem here. I did however see a metal radiator fail in my first Toy p/u; the plastic radiator in my second Toy p/u held up fine.
Lead, follow, or get out of the way
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Bob Lincoln
Dodge Dakota
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7/21/2004
08:42:20
| RE: Plastic Radiators
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"They run much cooler than copper radiators and are more efficient." Really. Please tell me how that is possible when copper transfers heat 40% better than aluminum. 8)
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IntenseDak39
*GenIII*
7/21/2004
08:54:26
| RE: Plastic Radiators
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Message:
bob,
since you said so, i am gonna believe you.
6.6 Lt. Big Block, 727 TF shift kit, 452 heads, edelbrock 750 cfm, .513/.513 284/300 crower cam, comp cams springs, comp cams pushrods, 1.5 roller rockers, dp intake, mopar ignition, mopar windage tray, dual exhaust w/ 40 series flowmasters, 4.10 gears, coilover drag suspension, approx, 3500 lbs
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Bob Lincoln
Dodge Dakota
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7/21/2004
11:33:35
| RE: Plastic Radiators
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From my engineering text, "Elements of Physical Metallurgy":
Thermal conductivity:
Copper - 0.40 x 10^3 W/(m*K)
Aluminum - 0.24 x 10^3 W/(m*K)
This is why copper is normally chosen to conduct heat, over aluminum. Aluminum is cheaper and lighter, though, which is why carmakers switched to it.
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jethro
Dodge Dakota
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7/21/2004
13:13:18
| RE: Plastic Radiators
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Message:
Can u help with my mental digestion? Explain these letters like
m and K?
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IntenseDak39
*GenIII*
7/21/2004
16:10:58
| RE: Plastic Radiators
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Message:
bob,
did you know that a two row aluminum radiator cools better than a four row copper radiator?
i am not talking about a piece of copper transferring heat better than a piece of aluminum... i am talking radiator to radiator.
now why does an aluminum radiator work better? (here's a hint bob, almost all manufacturer's use aluminum... this aint the 70's any more)
.. answer
The copper radiator uses solder (lead) for the construction and the lead will act as an isolator and decrease the efficiency of the radiator. Another disadvantage for copper is the core design. The most common core design for copper radiators heavy duty is a three core or three rows. The three core refers to three rows of small tubes for the coolant for flow through for air cooling. The disadvantage of the three rows is the radiator is thicker and will hinder airflow at lower speeds. Another disadvantage is the three core radiators will use thinner tubes and they can easily be punctured or damaged. The added rows will also use thinner cooling fins. Now aluminum radiators on the other hand have thicker tubes so they require less rows (noticed our stock radiator (genIII) only uses a two row design aluminum radiator? The thicker tubes and less rows allow for bigger cooling fins (twice as long on average) and also helps air flow through the radiator.
please do a little reading on this... as i already have.
6.6 Lt. Big Block, 727 TF shift kit, 452 heads, edelbrock 750 cfm, .513/.513 284/300 crower cam, comp cams springs, comp cams pushrods, 1.5 roller rockers, dp intake, mopar ignition, mopar windage tray, dual exhaust w/ 40 series flowmasters, 4.10 gears, coilover drag suspension, approx, 3500 lbs
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Bob Lincoln
Dodge Dakota
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7/21/2004
16:27:43
| RE: Plastic Radiators
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Apples to oranges...I merely said that copper conducts better. If you compare *equal thicknesses* of copper and aluminum, copper transfers far more heat.
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IntenseDak39
*GenIII*
7/21/2004
16:35:21
| RE: Plastic Radiators
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Message:
"The radiators are aluminum and have plastic end tanks on them. They run much cooler than copper radiators and are more efficient."
that was my original statement bob...
and you added
"Really. Please tell me how that is possible when copper transfers heat 40% better than aluminum"
glad i could help you out :D
6.6 Lt. Big Block, 727 TF shift kit, 452 heads, edelbrock 750 cfm, .513/.513 284/300 crower cam, comp cams springs, comp cams pushrods, 1.5 roller rockers, dp intake, mopar ignition, mopar windage tray, dual exhaust w/ 40 series flowmasters, 4.10 gears, coilover drag suspension, approx, 3500 lbs
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confused
Dodge Dakota
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7/21/2004
18:37:16
| RE: Plastic Radiators
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I have not seen any serious race car built in the last 10 years have either a copper radiator or intercooler. ALMS, NASCAR, F1, World Rally, ETC.
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Bob Lincoln
Dodge Dakota
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7/21/2004
19:52:21
| RE: Plastic Radiators
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And did you know that radiators have plastic tanks, nowadays, regardless of whether they're copper or aluminum? The heat transfer is not at the tank, the plastic is an insulator. It's only the core and fins that shed any significant amount of heat.
I notice that you don't dispute my statements. Copper transfers more heat than aluminum. If you make two radiators, one copper and one aluminum, with the same physical dimensions, the copper one will transfer nearly 40% more heat.
The reason copper is not used as much as it was in the 70s and earlier is COST.
Glad I could help you understand that. 8)
Jethro, W is watts, m is meters, K is degrees Kelvin. 10^3 is 10 to the 3rd power, or 1000.
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Bob Lincoln
Dodge Dakota
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7/21/2004
19:55:40
| RE: Plastic Radiators
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"I have not seen any serious race car built in the last 10 years have either a copper radiator or intercooler. ALMS, NASCAR, F1, World Rally, ETC."
Because copper is much heavier than aluminum. Weight is everything in racing. Thus, if you design an aluminum radiator with *DIFFERENT* physical dimensions that *has MORE SURFACE AREA* than a copper one, you compensate for aluminum's relative thermal inefficiency.
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IntenseDak39
*GenIII*
7/21/2004
20:29:51
| RE: Plastic Radiators
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Message:
build a copper radiator the same specs as an aluminum radiator and it would weight a million lbs.
6.6 Lt. Big Block, 727 TF shift kit, 452 heads, edelbrock 750 cfm, .513/.513 284/300 crower cam, comp cams springs, comp cams pushrods, 1.5 roller rockers, dp intake, mopar ignition, mopar windage tray, dual exhaust w/ 40 series flowmasters, 4.10 gears, coilover drag suspension, approx, 3500 lbs
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Mr. Einstien
Dodge Dakota
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7/21/2004
21:34:29
| RE: Plastic Radiators
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Message:
Bob, I think I can speak for everyone on this. COPPER TRANSFERS HEAT BETTER THAN ALUMINUM! You've proven your point. The horse is dead. Now move on.
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Jeremy Mc.
Dodge Dakota
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7/21/2004
22:41:32
|  RE: Plastic Radiators
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I couldn't help myself BOB, but after seeing your stubbornness I had to comment....
I've got a `55 Chevy 2-door post "210" that I've had since high school. I pulled out the 235 hot-water six my senior year and dropped in a MPFI SB350 I spent $17k building up. It was imperative that I pulled out the stock copper radiator since it would “not” be able to keep up with the 400+ HP she was about to produce. I called Griffin Radiators to have a custom all aluminum radiator sent to me that was exactly the same size and bolted up to the stock brackets. Griffin said that this radiator was good till 900HP.
http://griffinrad.com/faq.php
FAQ - GENERAL RADIATOR & COOLING pg.1
1) Does an aluminum radiator cool better than a copper brass radiator?
An aluminum radiator does cool better than a copper brass radiator. For example, an aluminum radiator with 2 rows of 1" tubes is equivalent to a copper brass radiator with 5 rows of 1/2" tubes. Aluminum provides high efficiency, is lightweight, and has a longer life compared to copper brass.
So BOB, despite your bullsh!t schooling…. You’re just like everyone else that is booksmart. As most of us have noticed, there are only two types of people – booksmart and those that are self taught and can apply themselves in the field.
My primary profession is in electronic hardware as a systems engineer. For those of us that used to or still overclock their PC’s you may remember the alpha cooler heatsink and fan combo that a lot of overclockers used. The heatsink was made of a copper base with a dense amount of aluminum cooling fans. The reason being is yes BOB, the copper base was superior at abstracting the heat from the CPU core with incredible efficiency. So why would the manufacturer use aluminum fins instead of copper? No BOB, cost isn’t a factor here because this heatsink was made in a pure copper version fins and all. Aluminum was able to dissipate the heat from the copper plate quicker. The pure copper version tended to retain some of the heat running hotter.
Thus this reinforcing Griffin’s statement. I am never one to bash people but BOB seems so brightly to be “one of those people” that come in to a store to talk to someone about a sales item.. and with a limited amount of knowledge, tell the sales person they know nothing about the product being sold. Anyone else seen this before?
BOB, you are quite depressing…. But I’m sure we’ll see a followup post from you defending youself, your statements, and probably an attempt to bash me.
In conclusion I must show you all an excerpt from a VCA member on the Viper forums. My business partner has a Viper and reads me some of the funniest things I’ve ever heard throughout the weeks.
“I have a stock 93 Viper. I have never taken to the track.
But I have floged it on the street a number of times against mulletwagons and such.
*I find that LS1 (f-bodies) need to have a few mods to keep up.(Exhaust, pullies computer,Ect)
*I find that 5.0/4.6 Mustang need to have quite a few more mods(a new cobra will run on my fender wells till 90, watch out)
*I find ricers need to get a f ucking life.”
If I had to, I’d classify BOB and his particular mindset as the following….
BOB, you are a ricer in the mind.
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DSW
Dodge Dakota
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7/21/2004
23:26:18
| RE: Plastic Radiators
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Here's another reason aluminum rads cool better than copper rads, the tubes are wider in aluminum rads and provide more surface area for the air to pass over. 1 - 1" aluminum rad tube will have more surface area for the air to flow over than 2 - 1/2" copper tubes, were talking about the flat surface of the tube, not the rounded sides which don't get much air flow. 1 - 1" aluminum tube will probably have 7/8" of flat surface for the air to pass over while 2 - 1/2" copper tubes will have less than 3/4" of flat surface for the air to pass over.
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Bob Lincoln
Dodge Dakota
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7/22/2004
08:49:36
| RE: Plastic Radiators
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"But I’m sure we’ll see a followup post from you defending youself, your statements, and probably an attempt to bash me."
Well, you'll be partially disappointed, as I dont' bash anyone. This web site seems full of people who are particularly devoted to it, rather than to help people.
"I’d classify BOB" And therein lies the assumptions. You MUST classify, because you don't know me or my background, in an attempt to discredit me with your inane and erroneous assumptions.
As for "bullsh!t schooling", I notice that you admit to also being an engineer. So you must have had "bullsh!t schooling", too, then. What you are ignorant of is my 27 years of working on cars, successfully repairing, rebuilding (mechanically and bodywork) and repainting them. What is bullsh!t is your statement.
As for heat sinks, the copper slug pulls the heat out more efficiently, but the reason aluminum is used on the fins IS partially cost (copper is about $1.40 a lb, aluminum is $0.80), and partially because it is strong enough to make more, thinner fins which expose enough surface area to equal the cooling that copper would provide. This is the whole key to getting better performance out of aluminum than copper - to create far more surface area to compensate for the penalty of not having the thermal conductivity that copper does.
Experience shows that aluminum radiators do not hold up as well to road salt as copper. My last two Dodges, as well as my dad's Plymouth, have lost nearly half of their fins to corrosion, while the tubes remained intact. In contrast, I have had cars driven and exposed just as much, with copper radiators that lasted from 17 to 28 years with no apparent deterioration.
As far as helping the original poster, only IntenseDak has offered any assistance, by way of mentioning that the plastic tanks are unlikely to be the issue. The cores are crimped to the tanks and gasketed, so a pressure buildup was likely the cause of failure; either faulty pressure cap or a localized clog.
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IntenseDak39
*GenIII*
7/22/2004
08:57:31
| RE: Plastic Radiators
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Message:
yeah people... calm down.
i guess bob thought my statement was that aluminum transfered heat better than copper but i said aluminum radiators were more efficient than copper radiators.
bob and i seemed to have agreed upon each other... just let it die.
6.6 Lt. Big Block, 727 TF shift kit, 452 heads, edelbrock 750 cfm, .513/.513 284/300 crower cam, comp cams springs, comp cams pushrods, 1.5 roller rockers, dp intake, mopar ignition, mopar windage tray, dual exhaust w/ 40 series flowmasters, 4.10 gears, coilover drag suspension, approx, 3500 lbs
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Bob Sux
Dodge Dakota
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7/22/2004
10:45:23
|  RE: Plastic Radiators
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Message:
Bob, I'd have to agree... you do suck. I too have seen people like you before to at stores... last time I did, I opened my door real hard on his when I left... he was still inside the little shop acting like a fool.
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