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arthur
Dodge Dakota
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6/18/2002
14:00:18
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 Subject: Question on IFS Suspension
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OK...i've been around this post enough now to know a suspension lift for our IFS Dakotas are little more than rumor.
I've also been around the 4 wheeling community enough to know that solid-axle is the best way to get great 4 wheeling capabilities.
But i've also seen some kick a$$ Toyotas out there with IFS that work very well at 4 wheeling.
These questions are mostly channeled towards Knobbyman, or anyone else with a suspension lift on an IFS truck, why is it that our trucks IFS lifts are not as well spoken about as Toyotas?
Knobby...i know your lift is crap...and i know that with all IFS lifts...the axle and control arms and what not remain basically at stock ride height unless you add bigger tires...and i know that the only thing a suspension lift for our trucks like yours is make it so there is more ground clearence under the actual cab of the truck and that the axles and what-not remain.
But the same is true of Toyotas...there IFS stays in the same place as well, they have the same shortcomings as our trucks...
So WHY is it that Toyota can do it and we can't?
Knobbyman...you said your articulation and travel in the suspension stayed relatively the same even though you have a suspension lift...is it because your lift is crap...or should i expect the same of the Rancho lift?
Basically, i see so many toyotas with IFS that can do some amazing things...articulation and travel almost as well as a solid axl counter-part...is there some reason i should believe my truck won't achieve better 4 wheeling capabilities with a suspesnion lift like Toyotas do?
Will i not achieve better travel and articulation with a Rancho 3" lift when it comes out?
Is the AIM lift that you spent so much time and money on also unable to give you better 4 wheeling performance, or do you see better suspension characteristics?
Is it different for people with the older pre-Rack&Pinion dakotas with the Tuff Country lift? do you guys get better articulation and travel?
I'm basically searching for hope that a suspension lift can allow me to run with the new Toyota 4X4s with 4" lifts and 33" tires, and not only hear news of suspension lifts performing the same as a stock or body lifted dakota.
Say it ain't so...tell me that a suspension lift and better wheelin performance is possible!
2002 Dakota SXT Extcab 3.9L Stock
Cock, stock, and ready to ROCK!
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4wDakota
GenIII
6/18/2002
14:38:26
|  RE: Question on IFS Suspension
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Dakotas are plagued with the same probems as chevy and ford IFS. These trucks are V8's and are made to tow heavy loads and be worked hard.
Toyotas market is offroad, they know this. Why do you think they sell as many 2wd prerunners as 2wd regular trucks; because they are made for offroad. Dodge changed to IFS on the rams because of this. All of the "automotive experts" in the CAR magazines complained about the harsh ride compared to the Ford and Chevy. So dodge pleased most of the customers, the 95% who never go offroad. The 5% that really want aand need IFS can still buy a 3/4 ton ram and get a live axle.
Toyotas flex more because of design. You also find that most 4x4 toyotas on the dealer lots have manual hubs. This is because the suspension is so cranked up (to get the diff high) that the CV's get eaten up. A lot of people think "shift-on-the-fly" is best but Toyota knows that making a wilder suspension with a lot of travel appeals more to offroaders even if they have to lock the hubs when they hit the trail. Ford, dodge and chevy can poll there customers (mostly business men and soccer moms, the 95%) and they will say "hell no I don't want to get out and lock the hubs"
Think about a jeep. Bone stock great offroader but it can't tow worth a damn (too short of a wheelbase) and its noisy as hell). No vehicle can do it all.
So, what it boils down to is pleasing the 95% and making sales. Toyota isn't doing anything magical to get more travel. Anyone could design a suspension for any vehicle that will get a lot of travel but its getting the customer to buy it.
98 CC 4x4, 5.2 Auto 3.55LSD
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arthur
Dodge Dakota
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6/18/2002
16:09:14
|  RE: Question on IFS Suspension
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And that's all fine with me...i know that Jeeps and Toyota buyers are looking for more off-road set-ups...what i'm wondering is why a SUSPENSION LIFTED Dakota can't compete with a suspension lift Toyota...since we suffer the same IFS.
i know our trucks are heavy as hell and not meant for the same kind of 4 wheeling, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be able to after a lift, so why does Knobby's suspension lifted Dakota still not get great travel and articulation now that it is lifted?
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4wDakota
GenIII
6/18/2002
16:25:32
| RE: Question on IFS Suspension
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The components are the same. Diff, a-arms, CV joints. The lift just moved them down 5". A toyota has more travel from the factory than a dakota so a lifted toyota is going to have more than a lifted Dakota. It's all in the design from the factory
Most IFS trucks don't gain anything as far as wheel travel from a suspension lift. If you look under your Dak you'll see there isn't much room for the suspension and CV joints to move without contacting something. That "space to move" doesn't change with the lift because EVERYTHING is moved down. A big a$$ Z71 with a 6" Procomp lift still only travels a couple of inches. When you want to develop a lift for IFS that will increase travel you are talking major $$$ and major modifications.
98 CC 4x4, 5.2 Auto 3.55LSD
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arthur
Dodge Dakota
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6/18/2002
16:42:04
| RE: Question on IFS Suspension
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i think i'm starting to understand now...but i would still appreciate a response from Knobbyman.
Thanks though 4wDakota, i think i'm getting it.
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TallQuad
Dodge Dakota
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6/19/2002
00:43:37
|  RE: Question on IFS Suspension
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hehe... maybe now people will understand a little more why 2wd trucks aren't all that bad for off-roading. I love 4 wheel drive but just look at the clearance my lifted 2wd dak has! Can't have it all... well, maybe Hummers are close!
Lets see if I get this pic thing right...
img src=<http://members.cox.net/tallquad/truck_cutout.gif>
hope this pic isn't too big... if it works! :-/
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TallQuad
Dodge Dakota
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6/19/2002
00:49:01
|  RE: Question on IFS Suspension
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Hmmm... lets try this!
<img src="http://members.cox.net/tallquad/truck_cutout.gif"></A>
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TallQuad
Dodge Dakota
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6/19/2002
00:50:30
|  RE: Question on IFS Suspension
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Ah screw it... you at least have the address to the pic. LOL!
Sorry for the multiple posts, hehe...
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McCracken
Dodge Dakota
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6/19/2002
02:04:50
| RE: Question on IFS Suspension
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Arthur- Remember that IFS is also weaker than a straight axle. The lighter weight Toyota places less stress on the axle than our heavier Daks do. Just something else to consider.
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Knobbyman
*GenIII*
6/19/2002
10:11:43
| RE: Question on IFS Suspension
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Aurthur.. The VERY basic reason... Differen't Front Differentials.
4wDakota has hit the nail on the head... and quite hard I might add. Toyotas have always been geared towards off-roading. Dakotas.. They're more like a mini-fullsized work truck.
You can tell just by the fact that they don't have any option for front tow hooks that there is a problem with the design for Dakotas to go off-road.
The IFS Differential that Toytas use is just a better design as far as articulation goes. Dodge does have the stronger axle though.
It's a trade off. I do wish we could get some more articulation.. and I think I might have found some more in my truck.. but we'll see.
'01 Graphite QC 4x4
4.7 3.55 LSD
4.5" Customized Suspension Lift
305x70x16 GoodYear MT/R's
http://www.knobbyman.com
----Speed only breaks stuff faster----
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Jeff
Dodge Dakota
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6/28/2002
01:18:03
| RE: Question on IFS Suspension
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To get wheel travel from the Dakota/Durango requires new upper and lower arms. There are a few Dakotas and a pretty nice Durango running around Southern California that have had some custom upper and lower arms built to increase the width of the front end and to increase the wheel travel. Everything that is done to a Toyota can be done to a Dakota, it'll just cost more. If you don't live out on the west coast or don't live near someone capable of custom fab'ing a long travel system for your truck you are SOL. For a few thousand you could have a custom kit built and installed - and for another thousand you could fix some of the Dakota shortcomings to help it survive off-road. There is no shortage of talent out there to build stuff for the Dakota, there is a shortage of Dakota owners willing to spend the $$$ to have it built. Toyota owners do the same thing, they drop $3000+ on a long travel system and then go have fun. But like everyone has already said, the Dakota / Durango was never sold as the ultimate off-roader - it's designed to work well within it's own limits. If you want to push it past the production design constraints break out the wallet and go custom. If anyone needs info on shops in California that build custom Dodge stuff e-mail me at jeff@performancelifts.com and I'll give you the low-down.
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