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2WD
Dodge Dakota
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3/07/2002
16:36:47
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 Subject: Fuel Blending
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Is 89 octane gas a mix of 87 and 91 done right at the pump, and by the pump? I read that some new stations were doing that but can't confirm it.
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handi2
GenIII
 
3/07/2002
20:23:24
|  RE: Fuel Blending
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Never heard of such a thing
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2002 Quad Cab SLT Plus 4.7 Every Available Option
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4WD
Dodge Dakota
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3/07/2002
20:40:14
| RE: Fuel Blending
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They can do it at the terminal "rack" where the tankers load up, but I don't know if individual pumps can do it. Some of them look pretty hi-tech.
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Jeff
Dodge Dakota
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3/07/2002
21:17:17
| RE: Fuel Blending
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The answer to your question is yes and no. I am a petroleum maintenance technician. (I fix and install gas pumps and just about any other fueling equipment, most often at gas stations.) Whether a station is blending its mid grade or not depends on what dispensers they purchased. The dispensers can come with proportional valves that actually monitor and adjust flow to create any level of octane that is between your high and low feed stock octanes. It is set up in the dispensers programming as a percentage of high or low grade, depending on the brand of dispenser. It is in fact very accurate and is regularly tested for accuracy by most states department of natural resources. You can tell if the station that you get gas at is blending or not. Look at the fill lids on the tank pad.(Where the tanker drops the gas into the tank) White lid=regular unleaded (low grade), blue lid=mid grade, and red lid=premium. Only a red and a white lid means blending. Red lid, white lid, and blue lid means not blending. Extra FYI yellow or green lids are diesel. Brown is K-1 and bright orange is where the vapors are recovered from the tank.
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drtswinger
Dodge Dakota
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3/07/2002
23:45:44
| RE: Fuel Blending
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interesting. any recommendations as to who sells the best gas?
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2WD
Dodge Dakota
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3/08/2002
10:34:17
|  RE: Fuel Blending
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Great information, Jeff! I'll bet there will be lots of questions for you here.
Where is the "tiger piss" usually added to give brand identity? In the REAL old days I recall they added it by hand right at the delivery truck or even the station. Is that all done automatically at the loading "rack" these days?
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Branding
Dodge Dakota
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3/08/2002
11:08:17
| RE: Fuel Blending
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Jeff. Is there some "off the shelf" additive package that outfits like Safeway, WalMart, etc add to their fuel to make it as good as branded fuels with Techron, System 3 etc., or all these fuels really significantly different from each other? Thanks.
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Californian
Dodge Dakota
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3/08/2002
11:31:56
| RE: Fuel Blending
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A large Texaco station here just converted to Shell and got all new fancy pumps. They have red white and blue tank covers, but I wonder if they would automatically switch over to 89 octane blending when installing new pumps??? If so, what would they do with the extra tank in the ground??? Seems a shame to just let it sit there empty.
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Branding
Dodge Dakota
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3/08/2002
11:39:20
| RE: Fuel Blending
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I've often wondered about Caseys in Iowa, Jeff. They are Iowas largest retail fuel vendor but they pump unbranded gas. Since Iowa has no refinerys, does base stock fuel come into the state by pipeline from somewhere? Seems like a lot of gas to truck in from out of state?
Also, how would their unbranded fuel compare with branded? (Lots of people must like it!) Do they mix in some GENERIC type of additives to make it OK to use?
Also (while I'm asking) does the handling of Ethanol require anything special in terms of handling in the delivery trucks or at the stations? I had heard it's storage life was somewhat limited.
Thanks!
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Densa
Dodge Dakota
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3/08/2002
16:30:04
| RE: Fuel Blending
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> Brown is K-1
Uhmmm. What is K-1?
>and bright orange is where the vapors are recovered from the tank.
Vapor recovered from ALL the tanks??? What is then done with it?
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xplikt
Dodge Dakota
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3/08/2002
16:40:56
| RE: Fuel Blending
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K-1 is kerosene.
"Vapor recovered from ALL the tanks??? What is then done with it?"
A lighter.
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alex
Dodge Dakota
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3/08/2002
16:45:29
| RE: Fuel Blending
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I thought if you blended 87 with 91 you got 178 Octane.
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Dr0p0ff
GenIII
3/08/2002
17:22:24
| RE: Fuel Blending
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LOL @ Alex.. good stuff man
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Jeff
Dodge Dakota
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3/08/2002
19:06:22
| RE: Fuel Blending
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drtswinger: I wouldn't say that any particular station sells the "best" gas. I use strictly Mobil gas in my vehicles. Of course I also use only Mobil 1 lubrication products (oil, oil filter, grease, etc.) This is just a personal preference.
Californian: Often times, when stations upgrade their dispensers, they will in fact install blenders. The old midgrade tank is usually used as either a diesel tank (if the station didn't have diesel before) or most often it will be used as another low grade tank. Most blenders use more unleaded than premium to make the midgrade, however, this depends on the high and low grade octane levels. Therefore, in any case the station will go through even more low grade than before. And since low grade is the most often used, the station needs more space for low grade fuel to make up for what is lost in making the midgrade.
Densa: The vapors are usually returned to the rack in the tanker truck. When the tanker gets a new load of fuel, the vapors are recovered into a tank where they are super cooled back into a liquid and then, for lack of a better term, "recycled".
Alex: The product of mixing two grades of gas has to be between the original two octane levels.
For instance, 50% 87 octane and 50% 91=89
67% 87 octane and 33% 93=89
Kind of like an average.
Got to go for now. I'll check back tonight or tomorrow. Thanks for your questions and interest in the subject.
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Californian
Dodge Dakota
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3/08/2002
19:16:48
| RE: Fuel Blending
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Great and Helpful Answers!
>since low grade is the most often used, the station needs more space for low grade fuel to
make up for what is lost in making the midgrade.
Makes sense, but how do they tie in the extra tank to the existing 87 tank? Gotta hook them together or switch between them somehow. I can't even imagine some of these dumb gals who take the money knowing how to switch a tank.
Could you talk some about the additives and where they are added to make Mobil (for example) a specific brand different from Exxon? Thanks.
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Lattimer
Dodge Dakota
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3/08/2002
19:59:40
| RE: Fuel Blending
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Just some additional food for thought, I am an engineer in a New Jersey refinery. All gasoiline starts out as the exact same stuff with the exact same chemistry (for each grade). An additive package is typically added at the time a tanker fills up, or where the pipeline picks up. Different brands use different additives. Everybody uses some kind of additive, but things like Techron and whatnot are secret, and only added to certain batches. So, the gas you get from Joe Blow won't clean your injectors the way Chevron or Texaco claim, but its stil just as good as any other gas. By the way, its reallt funny to see Sunoco tankers filling up at a Valero refinery (where I work) and to see Mobil, Coastal, Exxon, etc. all coming from the same tank.
Shawn
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Branding
Dodge Dakota
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3/08/2002
20:18:32
|  RE: Fuel Blending
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Shawn-
I'm real curious about the big discounters getting into the retail gas biz. I mention Caseys above, which dominates an entire state (Iowa), and now Walmart, Safeway, Costco and others. They clearly are going for customers which the old discounters couldn't draw for lack of some sort of brand identification and implied quality. It's now implied they will control quality (because of their size) and sell consistantly decent stuff.
Do you know if there is a "generic" "off the shelf" type additive package which they add to bring their final product somewhere in line with the majors they are discounting? Maybe not Techron as used by Chevron, but something equilavent? If not, then do we have to infer their gas is not quite as good as what the majors are pumping? (My Dakota will run on anything, but the Lexus LS-400 gets pampered. [ggg].)
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DaveR
Dodge Dakota
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3/08/2002
21:21:05
| RE: Fuel Blending
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I gotta throw my $.02 in here too: here in DE at some stations the vapors are piped to the top of the canopy to small refrigorator sized unit that burns it off. At night you can sometimes see them light up a little flame automaticly.
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Jeff
Dodge Dakota
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3/08/2002
22:00:51
| RE: Fuel Blending
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Californian: There are numerous ways that the tanks can be used together. One way is to connect the tanks via a "syphon bridge". (usually a 2" pipe that extends down into both tanks) This pipe is then connected to a small copper tubing that runs over to a syphon port on the top of the submerged unit. Different sub unit manufacturers do it in slightly different ways but the concept is generally the same. Each time the motor runs, a small amount of the gas will be pushed through a venturi, creating a vacuum. This starts the syphoning process. Once the syphon has started, it should never break unless the piping is not tight somewhere (between the tanks), or the tanks are pumped below the level of the syphon bridge pipe. (usually approx. 4" from bottom of tanks) If it's pumped too low, it will pick up syphon again as soon as a delivery is dropped and the unit comes on again. This system uses a motor in one tank but both tanks always stay level.
Another way is to put a unit in both tanks and pipe them together. They can be wired to both come on everytime that grade is used, or they can be hooked to relays that alternate from one to the other. Often times, in this application, a syphon bridge will still be used because the tanks won't pump down at the same level. (difference in pump pressures, etc.)
Another way is to put a unit in each tank. Hook the piping together. Then the units can be controlled by a tank monitor system, such as the Veeder-Root TLS-350. This tank monitor can give you the product levels in the tanks by inches and gallons. It also runs tank tests, and, if the station spends the extra money, it can run precision line tests. This system can check the level in the two tanks and alternate the units based on volume in each tank to pump them down equally.
As for everyone's questions about additives, how things operate at the rack, and which brand of gas is better. I really am not qualified enough in that particular field to answer those questions. However, Lattimer is definitely more qualified to field those questions than I am. Hopefully he can give everyone more insight as to that operation. As you can see, my knowledge is based more on installation and operation of equipment at the stations than on the chemistry of the fuels that the stations are pumping.
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Californian
Dodge Dakota
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3/08/2002
22:13:06
| RE: Fuel Blending
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Another Great Answer!
>There are numerous ways that the tanks can be used together...
Sounds like lots of solutions, but can these be implemented at a local station without tearing up the blacktop? I've never looked below a fill lid, but assumed the tank was just below it.
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Jeff
Dodge Dakota
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3/08/2002
22:17:38
| RE: Fuel Blending
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You are exactly right. All of those options include breaking concrete. And yes, the tank is below the fill lid at the other end of a 4" diameter riser pipe.
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Californian
Dodge Dakota
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3/08/2002
22:30:23
| RE: Fuel Blending
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>All of those options include breaking concrete.
I'm going to check that big Texaco (now Shell station) with the new pumps and see if there is any broken concrete around. Seems like there was some space blocked off around there before those pumps went in. Is there any way to tell if pumps do blending? I looked at those new ones last week and couldn't find any special markings or fittings that indicated anything special.
With ~10,000 Texaco stations converting to Shell in the next couple of years looks like lots of work for those with your skills.
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Jeff
Dodge Dakota
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3/08/2002
22:42:37
| RE: Fuel Blending
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You can tell if a pump is a blender a few ways. If you work on them everyday you can almost always tell by the sounds of the valves while fueling. Also, look on both sides of the pump. There should be totalizers on one or both sides of the pump. (usually in a very small slit in the front of the pump, they look like mechanical odometers.) They are usually labeled.(Hi, Low, and Mid or something similar) If you only find two, they're blenders. If three, they are not.(assuming the dispenser only has three total grades, no diesel) Be careful, some manufacturers like Wayne would put one of them in near the nozzle pocket and some Gilbarco dispensers have them at about knee level at the top of the lower door. Also, on one side of the pump at it's base you'll find a model number. If you give me that I can most likely tell you if it's a blender or not.
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Californian
Dodge Dakota
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3/08/2002
23:30:37
| RE: Fuel Blending
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Thanks, Jeff. I'll get back to you with that info in a few days.
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Muzzy
GenIII
3/09/2002
08:14:50
| RE: Fuel Blending
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Jeff-
Here is a question for you...Here in Iowa they are trying to ram this ethanol blend crap down our throats. Most stations here have ethanol blend for the mid-grade(89). Could they still be blending to get that even though the low and premium don't say enthanol? Of course, that would mean either low or premium would need to have ethanol in it.
I have asked the attendant at various stations if grades not marked ethanol contain ethanol. Most tell me no, BUT my truck runs like crap on the gas they claim isn't ethanol. I notice quite a bit of performance difference between the ethanol blend and straight gas. Probably due to the lower BTU/lbs that ethanol puts out compared to gas. Thanks in advance...
-Muzzy
2001 EC Dakota 4x4 - 287ci V8 - 5 Speed - 3.92 gears/w Sure Grip
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Lattimer
Dodge Dakota
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3/09/2002
15:38:51
| RE: Fuel Blending
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Branding
The discount brands get the generic mandated additive packages, for emmissions control, etc etc, and a generic performance additive that is part of any gasoline package. They do not get any of the high-detergency fuel injector and intake valve cleaning additives. Personally, I doubt these really do a lot anyways. I have looked around my area, and we have 5 local refineries. They all get similar crude oil, and they all make gasoline out of it. And the gasoline gets mixed and matched every which way and sent all over the place. I don't think you can guarantee that your mobil station bought is gas from a mobil refinery. It could easily have been from the pipeline filling center wich receives gasoline from all over, and puts in additives on the spot. You could be pumping Sunoco at the Mobil station very easily. So I always go to the cheapest place, which is an off brand station called Enrite. I have seen 3 of these stations in my county. My truck runs fine.
Personally, I think the gas station itself means more to the quality of the gas than anything. I can remember several years ago, a station in my old hometown called Kwik-Fill. They were always about 3-4 cents cheaper than everybody. But everyone who bought gas there had problems. After enough complaints, they had too rip up their tanks, and it was found that groundwater had been entering the tanks. No wonder everything ran like crap!!!
So in the end, I say find a place you like and try to always go there, regardless of the name.
Thats my opinion.
Shawn
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Californian
Dodge Dakota
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3/09/2002
15:43:00
| RE: Fuel Blending
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Jeff-
They are using brand new Gilbarco dispensers. The gas dispensers have 4 meters at eye level, 3 of which are in use. The Diesel dispenser has 2 meters in use, but only one has any mileage on it. There has been lots of concrete work recently around the tank standpipes, with red white blue and orange covers showing. So I guess this means they are not blending???
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Californian
Dodge Dakota
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3/09/2002
15:47:47
| RE: Fuel Blending
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Shawn-
>The discount brands get the generic mandated additive packages, for emmissions
control, etc etc, and a generic performance additive that is part of any gasoline
package. They do not get any of the high-detergency fuel injector and intake valve
cleaning additives. Personally, I doubt these really do a lot anyways.
Do you know WHERE the additives are added? At the loading rack? In the transport truck? At the station?
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Lattimer
Dodge Dakota
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3/10/2002
12:15:24
| RE: Fuel Blending
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The additives are added wherever the truck fills up, either at the refinery loading rack or at a rack along a pipeline. All the stations do is pump the fuel into your truck.
At our refinery, and several others I have spent time in, we have a series of small (1000-5000 gallon) tanks, each labeled "Texaco" "Exxon" "Chevron" etc. Small pumps blend the additives into the fuel as it is loaded into the tanker. Same thing happens at a pipeline loading rack.
Of course, we don't sell a whole lot of gasoline, my plant mainly makes Mobil lubricants. The
Sunoco refinery across the river makes most of gasoline in the area. Gasoline is just some extra stuff on the side ;)
Shawn
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Californian
Dodge Dakota
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3/10/2002
17:49:29
| RE: Fuel Blending
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>At our refinery, and several others I have spent time in, we have a series of
small (1000-5000 gallon) tanks, each labeled "Texaco" "Exxon" "Chevron" etc.
Small pumps blend the additives into the fuel as it is loaded into the tanker.
Same thing happens at a pipeline loading rack.
Thanks Shawn! That's exactly the info I was looking for. Now, is there also a small tank titled "Generic" or some such which the Safeways, Albertsons, Caseys, and WalMarts of this world use for adding to their fuel loads, or do they also each have specific tanks/mixtures which differentate their brands?
Thanks!
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Lattimer
Dodge Dakota
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3/11/2002
11:48:05
| RE: Fuel Blending
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There is a generic additive that is added to all of the gasoline. As far as I can tell, thats the only additive that goes into most of the "off" brands. However, I know that some of the off-brands do buy their fuel wholesale from the name brand suppliers. In my area, we have a mini mart chain called Wawa, and their gas actually comes from Sunoco, but I don't know if the same additives are used in Wawa gas as in Sunoco.
Shawn
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