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OBIO3
Dodge Dakota
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3/10/2006
21:54:14
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 Subject: Trans oil reading of great interest
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Please read ....... My question is, are there now other brands of trans oil that actually do meet all crysler requirments or are they still all or some fake.
Wednesday, August 17, 2005 VOLUME 5 ISSUE 33
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News Sponsored by Chevron Oronite
News Sponsored by Afton Chemical
News Sponsored by Chevron Base Oils
News Sponsored by LnG Base Stock Guides
Chrysler Launches ATF Licensing Program
By Tim Sullivan
The Chrysler Group on Monday announced that it will begin licensing its trademarked automatic transmission fluid specification, ATF+4, for commercial and retail sales. The program, scheduled to launch Sept. 1, opens the door for lube blenders and marketers to supply a product that until now was available only through Chrysler dealerships.
Chrysler officials said they took the step out of recognition that many customers were using unlicensed, imitation fluids from outlets other than dealerships.
“The benefits of licensing our ATF+4 product will allow the millions of Chrysler Group owners with vehicles still on the road to receive transmission fluid that is designed exactly for their vehicle,” said Dennis Florkowski, senior specialist/supervisor of Chrysler Fluids Group.
Chrysler has drawn criticism from lubricant blenders complaining about being shut out of the business of supplying Chrysler automatic transmission fluids, and from quick lube operators objecting to the high costs that Chrysler charged them. The Independent Lubricant Manufacturers Association, which lodged a complaint with the U.S. Federal Trade Commission two years ago, expressed cautious optimism about the new licensing program.
“It’s clearly a positive step, given where we have been with Chrysler on this issue,” ILMA Legal Counsel Jeffrey L. Leiter told Lube Report. He added, though, that the association is still gathering information to determine if the program’s requirements make licenses impractical to obtain.
Chrysler introduced ATF+4 as a high-performance, backward compatible, synthetic transmission fluid in 1998 and since then has used it for factory fill in new vehicles and recommended it for service fill in all DaimlerChrysler vehicles. It can be formulated with Group III and polyalphaolefin base stocks. The previous specification, ATF+3, while not a licensed product, continued to be available through approved manufacturers. Beginning Sept. 1, however, the automaker plans to phase out ATF+3.
The new licensing program differs from ATF programs employed by other U.S. automakers. First, it is administered by an independent business, the Center for Quality Assurance, a division of Savant Group’s Institute of Materials in Midland, Mich. Second, it delineates two tiers of licensing – one for rebranders and another for blenders. Companies that want to package fluid formulated and manufactured by licensed blenders must first submit a product sample, including label, to CQA for laboratory testing. If the sample passes, the would-be rebrander then submits an application for its license, after which it receives a visit from CQA. CQA conducts inspections to check that facilities for delivery, handling and process controls are adequate.
Rebranders pay an annual fee of $5,000 for their license, plus testing costs. CQA’s director, Rebecca Cox, said the latter should amount to less than $100. CQA will also conduct periodic follow-up field sampling and testing at no charge to licensees to ensure that products continue to meet the program’s requirements.
The process for becoming a licensed blender is much more extensive, Cox said. Applicants must undergo a wide range of tests to verify that their blending capabilities meet ATF+4 specifications. Blenders bear the costs of these tests, plus a $5,000 licensing fee and an additional fee of $1 per gallon of ATF+4 that they sell.
Cox said Chrysler and CQA expect that most initial interest in the program will be for rebrander licenses and that costs for blender testing have not yet been determined. She did say those costs will be significant.
Lubrizol is currently the only additive company with approved formulas for the specification. Other additive companies could seek their own approvals, Cox said, but would face considerable field and laboratory testing and expense.
Chrysler’s announcement said it moved to licensing “in response to marketplace demands and evolving vehicle technology.” Florkowski said this referred largely to the fact that many owners of Chrysler vehicles buy replacement fluid from stores or independent repair shops, rather than dealerships.
“There are a significant number of products popping up out there that claim to be equivalent to ATF+4,” Florkowski said. “We have had issues with the verbiage on labels for those products. In addition, we’ve conducted tests on them, and our experience has been somewhat negative. Considering all these factors, we felt it was incumbent on us to take steps that would help customers obtain fluids that match our high standards of quality.”
Florkowski acknowledged that ILMA’s campaign was also a factor in the adoption of the program. “I’m sure that had some impact,” he said.
Filed in November 2003, the association’s complaint argued that Chrysler engaged in unfair trade practices by not making the ATF+4 specification available to independent suppliers. ILMA also complained about a Chrysler policy of supplying the fluid to dealerships only if they agreed to buy Chrysler’s Mopar motor oil. The association claimed the latter practice steered motor oil sales away from ILMA members.
In the same month, the Automotive Oil Change Association lodged a complaint about Chrysler’s policy of requiring quick lubes that wanted ATF+4 to buy it from Chrysler dealers at nearly four times the prices that those dealers paid – and at a price that was nearly nine times the going bulk rate for standard automatic transmission fluid.
The Federal Trade Commission denied the complaints of both organizations last summer.
While praising the implementation of a licensing program in concept, ILMA said it is eager to see how it works in practice. Leiter said he has asked member companies for input about whether the $5,000 licensing fees are prohibitively high.
“The fees should not act as a barrier to entry,” he said.
So many problems .... So little time
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OBIO3
Dodge Dakota
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3/11/2006
16:58:23
| RE: Trans oil reading of great interest
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Hmmmmmmm no responce....... Thought this was of great value provided the fakes are gone and that is what i wanted to know > I do not get into automoive places much except walmart and I have never checked there products other then mobil 1 EP.Guess I wlll do some reading next trip. Anyway I'm going to change my trans this month. Guess I'll just stick with the over priced crysler stuff.
So many problems .... So little time
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responsive
Dodge Dakota
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3/12/2006
00:26:30
| RE: Trans oil reading of great interest
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a little info,not much, but more than you`ve gotten so far.
http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=16;t=002647#000001
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OBIO3
Dodge Dakota
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3/12/2006
00:39:14
| RE: Trans oil reading of great interest
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I know it isn't much. Just wondered if the other oil compsnies really did start making crysler trany fluid cause I've never seen it but really wasn't looking either. It would be nice if they are and a money saver for sure. I actually wasnt looking for this. came by it by accident. That's my last post on things I think might be of interest. When I think on it, If it was real everybody in here would have been talking about it months ago.
So many problems .... So little time
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Dark Jedi
Dodge Dakota
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3/12/2006
07:37:49
| RE: Trans oil reading of great interest
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this is old news. heard about this awhile ago.
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What about
Dodge Dakota
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3/12/2006
10:14:49
| RE: Trans oil reading of great interest
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So what about Amsoil, which claims to make an ATF that meets the ATF+4 specs?
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glk21c
Dodge Dakota
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3/12/2006
10:41:00
| RE: Trans oil reading of great interest
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used the AMSOIL ATF on my 02 Dak that required ATF+4, never had any issues.
plan on putting it in my 06 Dak, just haven't done it yet.
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DSW
Dodge Dakota
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3/12/2006
12:53:54
| RE: Trans oil reading of great interest
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I was really pizzed at DC for requiring owners to buy thier proprietary ATF+4 to maintian the transmission warranties. I tried to buy it once and the stealership wanted $8/qt,,, Fk them. I filled my 2000 DAK's 45RFE with $2.50/qt Valvoline ATF+3, the trucks owner manual stated ATF+3 and the truck ran just fine. ATF+4 is a better fluid than ATF+3, but it's just another revenue stream for DC.
Event though they are licensing the formula they are still causing the price to be inflated by thier licensing agreement. $5k to make it, $.25/quart royalty and God knows how much to test the fluid per DC's requirements. I wouldn't be shy of saying the fluid is going to cost $1-2/qt more than other ATF's just becuase of the licensing deal.
If DC was fair and honest about thier ATF I would be using it, but skrew those greedy b@st@rds. I have run Amsoil universal ATF in 2 Daks (2000 45RFE and 2003 545RFE) without any problems and only positive benefits.
Wellll, you asked.............
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Tony
Dodge Dakota
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3/13/2006
22:30:28
|  RE: Trans oil reading of great interest
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I'd get the ATF+4 from any reputable oil maker.
i.e. MOBIL1, AMSOIL, whoever makes it.
I'm about due for a ATF fluch on my truck, so I'll keep in mind, I don't have to stick with the $tealership alone. I NOW HAVE CHOICES!!!
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responsive
Dodge Dakota
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3/15/2006
18:01:55
| RE: Trans oil reading of great interest
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Pics of the new,now available, Valvaline +4,
http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=16;t=002789
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OBIO3
Dodge Dakota
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3/15/2006
21:54:47
| RE: Trans oil reading of great interest
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That's exactly what I was hoping for with this post. Have not seen it here but actually have not been surching cause I was thinking there was none. Thank you for the post.
So many problems .... So little time
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Shatto
Dodge Dakota
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3/16/2006
00:42:14
| RE: Trans oil reading of great interest
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98 automatic. 500,000 origonal miles. Amsoil.
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AmsoilSponsor
DakotaEnthusiast
3/16/2006
05:45:28
|  Trans oil reading of great interest - ATF+4 Amsoil
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FYI (and read between the lines as to how D/C unfairly treats its customers)
The Independent Lubricant Manufacturers Association (ILMA) filed a complaint with the U.S. Federal Trade Commission last week, accusing DaimlerChrysler Corp. of unfair trade practices for the handling of its most up-to-date automatic transmission fluid specification.
ILMA: DaimlerChrysler Unfair to Independents
Reported in "LUBE REPORT"
Industry News from the highly respected Lubes-n-Greases Trade Magazine, Wednesday, November 19, 2003, By Tim Sullivan
The Independent Lubricant Manufacturers Association filed a complaint with the U.S. Federal Trade Commission last week, accusing DaimlerChrysler Corp. of unfair trade practices for the handling of its most up-to-date automatic transmission fluid specification.
The association said the automaker has blocked blenders from making and selling its ATF+4 fluid – which was adopted in 1999 and is now recommended for most Chrysler vehicles. In addition it accused the company of leveraging its monopoly on the transmission fluid to muscle motor oil sales away from lubricant companies.
“To Chrysler, this probably is another revenue stream for a product code,” Executive Director Celeste Powers said. “However, to ILMA members this is unfair competition which hurts motorists.”
Chrysler first advised dealers in October 1999 that it had begun factory filling certain vehicles with ATF+4 and that they should service those vehicles with the same fluid, instead of the previous fluid, ATF+3. Two years later, the company advised that ATF+4 should be used in all vehicles with automatic transmissions except minivans built before 2000.
The association’s complaint said that Lubrizol is the exclusive manufacturer of chemistry for ATF+4 and that DaimlerChrysler has contracted Petro-Canada and ChevronTexaco to supply the fluid. The complaint said ILMA members that marketed earlier versions of the fluid requested the ATF+4 formula from DaimlerChrysler but were turned down. Members also contacted Lubrizol, ChevronTexaco and Petro-Canada but were told that those companies’ contracts with the automaker prohibited them from sharing the formula or reselling the fluid.
According to the complaint, such practices violate provisions of the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act, which prohibits automakers from conditioning warranties on the use of named oils or parts unless the automaker provides them for free or demonstrates that available alternatives will not function adequately.
The association noted that other automakers avoid the problem by licensing products that meet their specifications. ILMA officials said DaimlerChrysler has made formulas and specifications for previous fluids available to blenders.
The association said it urged DaimlerChrysler a year ago to establish a licensing program for ATF+4 and has tried several times since then to engage the company in discussions. ILMA legal counsel Jeffrey L. Leiter said the association has received no response.
“We tried to work this out with them but they’ve ignored us at every step of the way,” he said.
DaimlerChrysler did not return phone calls seeking comment.
The complaint said DaimlerChrysler “has taken its anticompetitive actions… one step further ”by allowing dealers to buy bulk volumes of ATF+4 only in combination with bulk purchases of their own Mopar brand motor oil. Dealers that decline the offer incur greater costs to buy the transmission fluid in smaller volumes.
ILMA’s complaint asked the trade commission to investigate its allegations and to compel DaimlerChrysler to cease its practices. Officials acknowledged that the case does not involve a large amount of ATF+4, but said they are concerned about the possibility of other automakers imitating DaimlerChrysler’s actions.
“If Chrysler can get away with this, it will embolden other original equipment manufacturers, so ILMA had to take a stand,” Powers commented.
--------------------------------------------------
My Opinion: That is why ATF+4 is expensive and also why D/C Dealers push the Mopar brand of oil ... to obtain the bulk discount prices on the ATF+4.
__________________________________________________
Please consider Amsoil Synthetic Universal ATF.
You can Request a FREE Catalog by clicking below.
Steven Roark , Amsoil Dealer , Proud Sponsor of www.DodgeDakotas.com
AMSOIL Synthetic Motor Oils, Lubricants, Filtration, and Truck Care Products
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AmsoilSponsor
DakotaEnthusiast
3/16/2006
05:52:41
|  Trans oil reading of great interest - Amsoil ATF
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ATF+4 Background
Chrysler went from ATF+ (MS 7176B) to ATF+4 in less than ten years. Essentially they were trying to make up for shifting problems in some of their transmissions by "tweaking" the frictional properties of their fluid rather than recalling the affected units. The ATF+4 fluid does seem to have solved the problems with some of the transmissions from the mid 1990's.
However, I know many Dodge owners that have noticeable and significant improvements switching to Amsoil Synthetic Universal ATF. They state that the transmission characteristics are better than when it was new. Yes we all know ... transmissions from different manufacturers use various types of clutch pack materials. So ... is it possible to formulate a single fluid that will behave differently in GM, Ford and Chrysler transmissions? The specifications for friction characteristics are for how the fluid behaves in the particular application, given the types of materials used in that transmission. They are not the stand alone properties of the fluid, which is where I think the misunderstanding comes in.
Amsoil Synthetic ATF is truely "Universal"
Amsoil did offer a Synthetic ATF specifically for ATF +3/+4 applications about 3-4 years ago. However once they were able to integrate this additive chemistry into their Dexron/Mercon formulation, they discontinued making this second fluid.
AMSOIL Synthetic Universal ATF
Recommended for applications requiring the following specifications:
Chrysler ATF+, ATF+2, ATF+3, ATF+4
__________________________________________________
AMSOIL Synthetic Universal ATF is a universal ATF designed to "EXCEED" nearly all foreign and domestic performance requirements. It improves fuel efficiency, reduces transmission temperatures by 20 to 50 degrees F and increases transmission life. Provides unsurpassed thermal stability and at least "3 TIMES THE LIFE" of conventional ATFs. Delivers maximum protection for towing and other severe-duty applications. Formulated with synthetic basestocks and the "TOP_OF_THE_LINE" additive package, AMSOIL ATF provides top performance, durability & efficiency.
Key Benefits to You:
Cleaner transmission components, More efficient power transfer, Lower Transmission temperatures, Dramatically less transmission wear, Smoother cold temperature operation, Long drain intervals. Compatible Applications: Nearly all passenger cars (foreign & domestic), Nearly all light duty trucks (including Dodge Dakotas).
__________________________________________________
I spoke with Amsoil Corporate and here are their comments:
"The AMSOIL ATF is far superior to an ATF blended with hydro treated naphthenic oil. Secondly it uses a premium additive chemistry that meets the static and dynamic coefficient of friction parameters to meet ATF+4 requirements. It also meets the coefficients of friction parameters for MERCON, MERCON V, DEXRON III, and Diamond SPIII.
Although the additive chemistry may be slightly different the exclusive MOPAR fluid from the factory, it still follows suit with the parameters set forth by Daimler Chrysler. All AMSOIL lubricants are designed to improve performance and increase protection to engine and transmission components."
"Further more, Chrysler developed the +4 spec to "fix" an inherent chattering problem with the Chrysler transmissions. That is the sole reason why Chrysler recommends +4 fluid and this is why nobody offers a +4 fluid. On the other hand there are fluids that are far superior to Chryslers +4 specs, including ours!"
"We didn’t just one day decide to make this claim just for the heck of it. This was very carefully researched and we have been developing superior fluids for over 34 years. We certainly would not recommend fluids we knew were going to cause problems. Why would anyone who wants to stay in business??"
__________________________________________________
Interested In Requesting a FREE Amsoil Catalog click the following link.
Steven Roark , Amsoil Dealer , Proud Sponsor of www.DodgeDakotas.com
AMSOIL Synthetic Motor Oils, Lubricants, Filtration, and Truck Care Products
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GraphiteDak
GenIII
3/16/2006
11:54:39
| RE: Trans oil reading of great interest
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Awesome information.
I have 37k miles now. Original factory fill and should change mine soon.
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Tineka
Dodge Dakota
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3/16/2006
19:54:59
| RE: Trans oil reading of great interest
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Do you have independent lab sets showing the Amsoil meets or beats the DC spec ?
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