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Dan M
Dodge Dakota
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11/13/2005
07:45:58
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 Subject: Gas Milage is finally a priority ??
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Are you kidding me?! The automakers are just figuring this out?! The automakers should get some interns to hunt down websites such as this to read the complaints about fuel economy.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10019856/site/newsweek/
Go the Extra Mile
With SUV sales tanking, Detroit has discovered that mileage matters. Now the race is on to jack up fuel economy, and everyday cars, not hybrids, offer the biggest solutions.
- Dan M
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prodak
Dodge Dakota
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11/14/2005
11:39:47
| RE: Gas Milage is finally a priority ??
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Consumers are the ones who "are just figuring this out". Auto makers have simply been selling what the public has been buying. Short-sighted on their part? Perhaps. But surprising, no.
How about getting SUVs reclassified as passenger vehicles (which is what most are used as) instead of as light trucks? CAFE standards are a joke - consumers vote with their wallets.
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DakotaSport
GenIII
11/14/2005
12:02:00
| RE: Gas Milage is finally a priority ??
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LOL, the media just brings everything out of line. Prodak is right, the automakers sell whats making them money, they are a business, they don't care if they are selling an SUV or a hybrid, they are going to build what is making them money. And on the other hand gas prices are going back down to where they were over a year ago, so no one can really complain about the gas prices anymore.
00 Dakota Sport CC 4.7L 4x4
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Dan M
Dodge Dakota
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11/14/2005
13:07:24
| RE: Gas Milage is finally a priority ??
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Well, I disagree to an extent.
There are many consumer who are not buying new because of several factors such as gas milage and cost and trade-in. I have a co-worker who has went to several dealers to trade his suburban in. he is married and has 2 children. He was going to get a minivan. The dealers were offering WAY below book value for trade in. They tried to say he would save money on gas but as he pointed out, that saves is wasted (and then some) on the bank note.
Granted, some consumers have a distorted view on what their needs are. Perfect example the Hummer H2. Who needs an H2 vs who wants an H2? Truck sales are still consistant because many people need a truck for work (contractors, etc).
The public has been buying what is available to them beause it is something that "fits their needs" (or their perceived needs that is)- ie passenger size, cargo, etc. If GM made an SUV that gets considerably better milage than anything comparable on the market, I bet you'd find the GM used lots full of non GM vehicles. A reason SUV sales are tanking is consumers are keeping their old SUV (gas milage is really no worse and they don't want a bank note - can't cost justify in todays economy) and the next generation of drivers is not willin to buy something that gets bad gas milage.
I know many people (myself included) who would buy a new van/truck/suv if the milage increased enough to cost justify the bank note.
- Dan M
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deerridge
GenIII
11/14/2005
15:35:21
| RE: Gas Milage is finally a priority ??
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Do some math boys. The savings on going from 16 mpg to 26mpg at $3 per gallon assuming you drive 300 miles per week like I do is (300/16x3=$56.25-300/26*3=$34.62) $21.63 for 52 weeks is $1125 for a year. That would take a long time to pay off a new vehicle costing close to $30,000. Let alone that the 26MPG vehicles I know won't pull 8000lbs or haul 1800lbs in the bed. We need alternate fuel producing the same power. Hydrogen is the obvious chose. Infinite supply, the ocean, no polutents, water, from burning it and the technology is real close at hand.
Real Horsepower
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deerridge
GenIII
11/14/2005
15:37:45
| RE: Gas Milage is finally a priority ??
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OOps! I forgot the main reason. We can tell OPEC to go screw themselves and eat sand.
Real Horsepower
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prodak
Dodge Dakota
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11/14/2005
16:35:01
| RE: Gas Milage is finally a priority ??
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Dan M, you and your friends may not be trading in your old SUV but somebody sure as hell is - Toyota and Honda sales are up 10-12% from last year (even DC's sales are up 4%).
deerridge, I too would love to see hydrogen fuel cell vehicles, but it doesn't look like it's going to happen any time soon. Problem is, the current process uses natural gas to make the fuel cells, and they take more energy to produce than they yield - a net loss.
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racerX
Dodge Dakota
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11/14/2005
18:16:12
| RE: Gas Milage is finally a priority ??
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exaclty. hyrdrogen, ethanol blends etc are a joke, it takes more petroleum energy to produce them than the difference in just burning gasoline. also, a hydrogen car is great and all, but pack that fuel cell full and see who is willing to give it a crash test...
it isnt just gas guzzling cars. plastics, the prescription drug market (out of control), overseas cargo, natural gas, all of this taps the petroleum reserves. our automakers who decided back in the '50s and '60s to scrap trains as public transportation and move everybody out into the suburbs doesn't help either. now there's no option but that 1 hour stop-and-go traffic commute to get anywhere.
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Eye_Trip
Dodge Dakota
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11/14/2005
18:27:13
| RE: Gas Milage is finally a priority ??
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Nuclear power is the answer.Or geothermal.
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Physics
Dodge Dakota
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11/14/2005
19:30:43
| RE: Gas Milage is finally a priority ??
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All energy systems on Earth are net loss systems. In fact, there is no such thing as a net gain system in the universe but if you come up with one, you'll be richer than God.
Gasoline also takes a huge amount of energy to refine. It takes more energy to distill one gallon of gasoline than is produced by burning one gallon of gasoline.
The largest consumer of energy (read:petroeum) on the planet is the automobile, of which the US fleet is full of big, inefficient gas guzzling hulks. The Stupid Utility Vehicle is little more than an iron safety blanky for soccer moms and it's long over due for the history books.
As long as we drive big inefficient gas guzzlers we will always have to buy the oil our enemies in Arabia, Venezuela, Nigeria, etc. I look forward to the day that I can buy a huge <I>efficient</I> hydrogen or biomass guzzler.
The argument about hydrogen being explosive in an accident is just another lie put out by the oil conglomerates. Stand in a gallon of gasoline and light it and then stand in a gallon of hydrogen and light it and tell me which one hurts more.
The difference between gasoline and hydrogen is that we have the infrastructure for petroleum and a huge gasoline cartel to desseminate lies about hydrogen. Gasoline will hit $10.00/gallon by 2015 and then we'll see real movement toward finding an alternative. The Asian giant is awakening and all producers will sell their oil to the highest bidder. It's simple economics of supply and demand. We don't have the supply and there in lies the problem.
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toolfan
Dodge Dakota
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11/14/2005
20:18:59
| RE: Gas Milage is finally a priority ??
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i think if we drive a suv or truck that fits are needs than yes have one, but 80% of the people driving the trucks and suvs are just doing it for the look and not using it for what it was design for. i wouldn't have gotten a dakota with a v8 but i like driving fast and that isn't hit with the crazy insurance and is affordable. i would have took in a 240z or a camaro but they are considered sports cars.
in way you pay for the gas and if your not happy with the amount than get a economical car, i may be mad at the gas prices but i know that with getting this powerful v8 i was going to be paying out the a$$ for gas. i enjoy what i drive and its my money that I'm willing to spend.
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shannon
Dodge Dakota
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11/14/2005
21:08:16
| RE: Gas Milage is finally a priority ??
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Hydorgen is very easy to make and cheap. All you need is a solar panel, salt water, and a way to collect the gas. If you put solar panels on your roof and had a system you would never have to buy gas again!. Also the technology exist to make your dakotas with there current engines run on the stuff (special injectors and computer) You could make your own hydorgen, then if you run out you could buy it at a fueling station.
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prodak
Dodge Dakota
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11/15/2005
00:18:09
| RE: Gas Milage is finally a priority ??
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Actually Mr."Physics", all energy systems in the universe are unity - energy is neither created nor destroyed - it can be converted, for instance, from stored energy in fossil fuels to waste heat and motion in internal combustion engines.
Gasoline production requires more fossil fuel energy than it yields. Hydrogen fuel cell production also requires more fossil fuel energy than it yields. Either way you're still reliant on a dirty, non-renewable energy source (for now at least).
shannon, a hydrogen fuel cell is essentially a battery that powers electric motors - we're not talking about burning hydrogen gas in a combustion chamber.
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prodak
Dodge Dakota
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11/15/2005
00:40:47
| RE: Gas Milage is finally a priority ??
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I should make clear that I'm a solid proponent of alternative energy, but HFCs can only be considered a true alternative technology when they can be supplied exclusively from renewable sources.
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humm
Dodge Dakota
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11/15/2005
00:43:08
| RE: Gas Milage is finally a priority ??
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But do you know how easy it is to produce hydrogen fuel....a little water(plus a sulphide), a little electrical current, and viola, you produce not only hydrogen(which is easy/cheap to convert to "fuel cell" form) but oxygen as well...humm...if only we could get the automobile agencies to think of the "big picture" instead of their wallets. Too bad we don't have more inventors like Wankel and his ingenious rotary engine:)
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prodak
Dodge Dakota
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11/15/2005
01:05:01
| RE: Gas Milage is finally a priority ??
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GM has already been thinking of the big picture to the tune of a billion dollars. They have a platform ready to go, they're just waiting for cheaper HFCs.
http://www.gm.com/company/gmability/adv_tech/400_fcv/
http://www.dow.com/commitments/studies/fuelcell/
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Super bee
GenI
11/15/2005
01:14:08
| RE: Gas Milage is finally a priority ??
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why do that?
somebody is getting rich off our gas money, i wonder who?
the oil companies that congress is currently investigating for RECORD profits
like 150 million PER DAY
it was a couple billion dollars last quarter
and they say that dont have the money to build new refineries?
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prodak
Dodge Dakota
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11/15/2005
01:25:30
| RE: Gas Milage is finally a priority ??
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I'm not sure which is worse - oil and gas prices controlled by commodity traders as it is now, or prices set arbitrarily by ?... the Feds?... the oil companies themselves?... pretty scary...
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shannon
Dodge Dakota
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11/15/2005
07:56:59
| RE: Gas Milage is finally a priority ??
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Prodak I know what a hydorgen fuel cell is but I saying that ANY internal combustion engine will run on hydorgen gas if it has the proper engine management and injectors (besideds, fuel cells are heavy and expensive). They are actually going to be mass producing this system in the near future but it's only going on fleet vehicles at first.
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Black M/S Dak
Dodge Dakota
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11/15/2005
10:08:38
| RE: Gas Milage is finally a priority ??
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Talk about flashbacks.Every time someone yanks the oil supply chain, I hear the same stuff. It takes a set amount of energy to move a set amount of weight. A truck/suv that can tow a useable load will not get the milage some of you think they should. As far as supplys go- Thanks to the EPA it takes 10 years and 100 million to get all the permits and clear the legal challenges to build a refinery. No new refinerys have been built in 30 years. Forget it if you want a new pipeline.(too many right of ways to clear). Hydrogen can be burned using LP type tech but the vehicle fuel bottle tank is huge. As for oil running out- this is the third time in my life time that We have being told that we only have a few years till its all gone. The greens are as bad as the Feds.
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prodak
Dodge Dakota
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11/15/2005
10:08:44
| RE: Gas Milage is finally a priority ??
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shannon, I know that Ford is pushing a hydrogen internal combustion engine (I.C.E.), but the HFC is still the holy grail in terms of efficiency and emissions. You still have the same problem of producing the hydrogen, not to mention the inherent inefficiency and pollution issues of the I.C.E.
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