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98XC600
Dodge Dakota
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9/28/2004
21:59:27
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 Subject: Brake Upgrades
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Ok gang, up to 26K miles now on an '03 Club Cab 4x4, 4.7 5spd Stick; and its time to think about brakes for the winter. I pull a fair amount of miles with an enclosed sled trailer. The stock brakes are decent when heated up some, but are damn pathetic when cold or wet. Last winter, it was scary a few times when pulling at very cold temps without warming the brakes up first.
I'm looking at trying slotted and drilled rotors for the front and hopefully for the rear too, along with those EBC 6000 SUV pads.
My Q's are this: I'm having a hard time finding good drilled/slotted aftermarket rotors for the rear, what have you come across?? Also, does anyone know if DR (02+ Ram) calipers are adaptable to a Dakota?? All we need is slightly larger pistons (probably 2-3mm bigger), and that would add some serious stopping power.
Thanks alot for all the help in advance.
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.boB
Dodge Dakota
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9/28/2004
23:10:09
|  RE: Brake Upgrades
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Slots and holes are strictly for looks, nothing else. By decreasing the rotor surface area, you will decrease braking effectivness. Doesn't sound like that's your goal.
First step is to replace your pads with a better quality - like Hawk or Performance Friction. Then replace the rotor with a better quality solid surface disc. If you're still not happy, you'll have to spend the big bux for larger diameter rotors and/or multi-piston calipers.
Read through the FAQ at Baer Brakes or Wilwood.
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99Dak
Dodge Dakota
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9/29/2004
14:21:15
| RE: Brake Upgrades
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hey.. where did you find those EBC 6000 SUV pads because I wanted to try those too??????
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BeerHat
Dodge Dakota
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9/29/2004
20:00:06
| RE: Brake Upgrades
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Hey .boB, you're not a very smart man are you...
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98XC600
Dodge Dakota
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9/29/2004
21:09:35
| RE: Brake Upgrades
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tirerack.com has the EBC pads I believe. They sound like they are really good, worth a try anyways. I'm definently going aftermarket rotors, tired of the factory junk ones... Sure would be nice to retro some DR calipers on there too, need to check into that.
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.boB
Dodge Dakota
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9/30/2004
00:15:25
| RE: Brake Upgrades
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Smarter than you, apparently.
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DSW
Dodge Dakota
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9/30/2004
20:02:08
| RE: Brake Upgrades
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Stock rotors warped every 10-20K until I put on a set of Raybestos drilled and slotted rotors at 100K. The drilled and slotted rotors have not warped after 30-40K.
Either the holes and slots in the rotors have lightened up the truck so much the brakes are not working as hard,,, or the holes and slots are preventing the rotors from warping ;)
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BeerHat
Dodge Dakota
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9/30/2004
21:01:36
| RE: Brake Upgrades
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.boB is somewhat correct in that by decreasing the rotor surface area, you will decrease braking 'contact surface'. NOT EFFECTIVENESS. What was missed here was that with standard braking systems, cooler brakes = better brakes.
(And before flame-wars start, it does make a difference what compound you run, racing pads tend to work better at higher temps, but release less gasses at these higher temps)
The difference is that common pads release gasses quicker than can be disappated without venting, which causes brake fade as the pad must compress this layer of gas between it and the surface of the rotor. That said, to compensate for the losses in contact area, intelligent car manufacturers increase the diameter of their factory cross-drilled rotors.
In summary, with proper venting (cross-drilled or slotted), our little weak-a$$, poorly designed braking sytems are more effective than that of a non-vented rotor in the same diameter. Tow a 7000lb trailer down a steep grade and tell me which you'd rather have.
If Porsche could get away with running a slightly smaller non-drilled rotor on their new lightweight turbo... don'tcha think Deiter wudda put'm on in the design phase? yeah, didn't think so.
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.boB
Dodge Dakota
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9/30/2004
23:26:03
| RE: Brake Upgrades
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From the Baer Brakes FAQ:
"What are the benefits to Crossdrilling, Slotting, and Zinc-Washing my rotors?
In years past, crossdrilling and/or Slotting the rotor for racing purposes was beneficial by providing a way to expel the gasses created when the bonding agents employed to manufacture the pads began to break down at extreme temperatures. This condition is often referred to as “green pad fade” or “outgassing”. When it does occur, the driver still has a good firm brake pedal, but simply little or no friction. Since this normally happens only at temperatures witnessed in racing, this can be very exciting!
However, with today’s race pad technology, ‘outgassing’ is no longer much of a concern. When shopping for races pads, or even ultra-high performance road pads, look for the phrases, “dynamic surface treatment”, “race ready”, and/or, “pre-burnished”. When these or similar statements are made by the pad manufacturer, the pad in question will likely have little or no problem with ‘outgassing’. Ironically more pedestrian pads used on most streetcars will still exhibit ‘outgassing’, but only when used at temperatures normally only encountered on the racetrack.
Although crossdrilling and/or slotting will provide a welcome path to expend any gasses when and if they develop, it is primarily a visual enhancement behind today’s often wide-open wheel designs.
Crossdrilling offers the greatest gas relief pathway, but creates potential “stress risers” from which cracks can occur. Baer’s rotors are cast with crossdrilling in mind, from the material specified, to curved vanes, behind which the holes are placed to minimize potential crack migration. Slotted surfaces are what Baer recommends for track only use. Slotted only rotors are offered as an option for any of Baer’s offerings.
Zinc washing is then done to provide a barrier, which resists development of surface scales or rust."
From the Wilwood Brakes FAQ:
"Q: Why are some rotors drilled or slotted?
A: Rotors are drilled to reduce rotating weight, an issue near and dear to racers searching for ways to minimize unsprung weight. Drilling diminishes a rotor's durability and cooling capacity.
Slots or grooves in rotor faces are partly a carryover from the days of asbestos pads. Asbestos and other organic pads were prone to "glazing" and the slots tended to help "scrape or de-glaze" them. Drilling and slotting rotors has become popular in street applications for their pure aesthetic value. Wilwood has a large selection of drilled and slotted rotors for a wide range of applications. "
Wilwood and Baer are arguably two of the leading designers and engineers of quality brake systems. Their engineers spend their entire work lives figuring out ways to make the brakes better. I tend to believe what they say about this. If they publish these statement, and they are clearly wrong, then their reputation goes right down the sewer - along with their market share.
The brakes need to convert rotational energy into heat energy through friction. Contact surface area is a major component of the equation. Take carefull not of what Wilwood says about cooling and cross drilling. What works on a high performance Porsche doesn't necessarily work on a daily driven light truck.
If you're working your brakes hard enough to overheat them, you need to figure out a way to cool them better. Fabricate a decent cooling duct to the center of the rotors. One that you can close off would be good if you live in a cold climate.
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DSW
Dodge Dakota
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10/01/2004
14:17:04
| RE: Brake Upgrades
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"Ironically more pedestrian pads used on most streetcars will still exhibit ‘outgassing’, but only when used at temperatures normally only encountered on the racetrack", this is true, but were talking about the Dak with inadequate brakes. The Dak's brakes can't handle the load of the truck's weigh under severe braking, add a trailer and the brakes are severly stressed to the point of overheating and warping the rotors, stresses similar to racing conditions, (though you won't see me hauling my boat down the 1/4 mile or burning up the corners on a road course ;)
With non-vented rotors on the Dak I always smelled hot brakes slowly decending long grades while towing, the drilled and slotted rotors have significantly reduced this probelm and when they have been hot the rotors haven't warped. Even if cooling ducts were on the truck they wouldn't work efficiently at 30-40 MPH.
Cooling ducts on a race car going 100-200MPH probably work quite well, put cooling ducts on a street vehicle and they won't in the same manner since the vehicle can't get the same ram air effect at slow speeds.
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