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Joey1
Dodge Dakota
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1/15/2004
14:51:40

Subject: NAPA full synthetic oil
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Does anyone out there know what brand of sythetic oil is bottled in the NAPA full sythetic bottle. Someone told me it was Valvoline, anyway it is only $3.50 a quart and sythetic Valvoline is usually around $5 a quart. Seems like a pretty good deal for synthetic oil.



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1/16/2004
10:15:26

Amsoil True Synthetic vs. NAPA FAKE synthetic oil
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NAPA is bottled by (and identical to) Valvoline.

For the record, when anyone has ever asked me to compare Amsoil vs "______", I make every attempt to be fair and unbiased. I have recommended Mobil1 to those that still believe they should change their oil every 3k miles. I have recommended Castrol Syntec (hydrocracked dino - and NOT a true synthetic) to those that still believe that synthetics are bad.

So here I go ... with blunt honesty:

Valvoline Synthetic uses a Group III base oil, so it's not technically a synthetic, but hydrocracked dino (PRETEND SYNTHETIC), and there really is no comparison between it and Amsoil, which is a TRUE SYNTHETIC (other than it's XL7500 line that is).

Valvoline's additive package is pretty weak, while Amsoil's is very good. Long drain intervals are Amsoil's big selling feature, and I would not want to chance going long intervals with Valvoline, as I don't believe it would handle it very well. If you remain with Valvoline, your oil should be changed often and regularly.

A TRUE synthetic uses either the Group IV or Group V base oil, or a mix of the two, plus their own unique additives package. As a matter of fact, I don't think any of the TRUE synthetics use all of one, they mix a combination of both. Group IV is PAOs (Polyalfaolefins) while Group IV is the esters.

If you insist on using a NON-SYNTHETIC ... I would recommend Castrol or Amsoil XL7500 over the Valvoline. Both the Castrol and Amsoil hold up better as per my interpretations of Used Oil Analysis' (UOA's) on all three.

IMHO ... Amsoil XL7500 and Castrol put up some of the best UOA's within the hydrocracked Group III Oils.

Repeat: Valvoline's is NOT a true synthetic oil, and their additive package is pretty weak
--------------------------------------------------
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Steven Roark , Amsoil Dealer , Proud Sponsor of www.DodgeDakotas.com

AMSOIL Synthetic Motor Oils, Lubricants, Filtration, and Truck Care Products



Joey1
Dodge Dakota
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1/16/2004
12:09:30

RE: NAPA full synthetic oil
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Steven,

Thanks. If I went with the full sythetic Valvoline would you recomend staying with an oil change every 3-4k miles. I found some data from some oil report and the numbers betweeen the full Val synthetic and their Durablend do not look very different. If the "full syntheitc Val." even worth the extra $ vs. their Durablend?
Thanks



99DAK
Dodge Dakota
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1/17/2004
15:39:04

RE: NAPA full synthetic oil
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Don't know about other cities/regions, but Target (Tampa Bay area) has Mobil 1 for $3.59/quart.



???
Dodge Dakota
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1/17/2004
17:36:30

RE: NAPA full synthetic oil
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99Dak, no one asked about mobil1.
Please stick to the subject. napa and amsoil and valvoline.



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1/17/2004
17:51:55

Amsoil comments on NAPA fake synthetic oil
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Joey1,

Valvoline does not manufacture a 100% TRUE Synthetic. They use Group III (hydrocracked) base stock, and in some cases a Group II base stock.

Valvoline says their Max-Life is a Group III (hydrocracked - fake) synthetic oil when it is actually a Group II. It is made from a Group II base stock just as the regular Valvoline oil is. It has basically the same additive package as the regular Valvoline except for the small amount of Moly Disulfide added to it. It also has around 9% ester base added to it for it's seal conditioning factors. Many Group III oil producers are now adding a tiny amount of PAO's and / or Esters to their formula --- just so they can false advertise. Don't be fooled!

IMOHO (In my own humble opinion), there are better "On-The-Shelf" oils available. I know a lot of mechanics are using Valvoline, and Valvoline's new advertising is " ... the #1 oil used by top mechanics in their own cars", ... (I should not touch that one --- but I think it is only because they are "giving" the stuff away).
__________________________________________________

Have you checked Amsoil's prices? If you extend your oil drain interval (even if only to every 10k miles) it is much cheaper to use Amsoil than 3k - 4k mile oil changes using conventional dino.
__________________________________________________



Steven Roark , Amsoil Dealer , Proud Sponsor of www.DodgeDakotas.com

AMSOIL Synthetic Motor Oils, Lubricants, Filtration, and Truck Care Products



99DAK
Dodge Dakota
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1/17/2004
18:08:43

RE: NAPA full synthetic oil
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???-

Joey1 said "...$3.50 a quart...Seems like a pretty good deal for synthetic oil."

Amsoil Guy, right on cue, then points out that Valvoline syn is "pretend" and only G4 and G5 base are true synthetics.

Since there was discussion about a "good deal" and different synthetic bases then why is it OT to point out that a Group IV base oil is available (depending on where you are) for 9 cents more?







TexasTodd
Dodge Dakota
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1/17/2004
20:20:12

RE: NAPA full synthetic oil
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He said, 'full synthetic', shich as has been pointed out. IT'S NOT SYNTHETIC AT ALL!!!!!!!!!

MOBIL 1 IS, THE 5 QT JUGS AT WALLYWORLD MAKE IT ABOUT 3.50, QUART,---FOR A TRUE FULL SYNTHETIC!!

That's why 99Dak mentioned it!! I got your back man.





Joey1
Dodge Dakota
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1/19/2004
10:02:50

RE: NAPA full synthetic oil
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Steven,

I know you are not real keen on the Valv. synthetic, but I went to the newly revamped bestsynthetic Amsoil website, and the Val. "sythn" actually looked to perform pretty well on the tests shown on that website. I know it is not a true synthetic, so is your real issue with the Valv. the fact that you feel its additive package and puriety is not up to snuff to allow any extension of drain intervals?



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1/19/2004
11:34:41

RE: NAPA full synthetic oil
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Joey1,

What more can I add?

The Used Oil Analysis results that I have seen have shown some significant differences in the oil's ability to offer engine protection, especially after 3000 miles.

IMHO --- Please DO NOT use Valvoline --- due to a weak additives package. Valvoline has been adjusting their formulations (using cheaper additives) so that they can compete "on-the-shelf" at Walmart, and give it away to mechanics so that they can advertise " ...used by more mechanics ... blah, blah, blah" Just HYPE in advertising. I know --- there are 8 garage owners in my family and all have been offered the "Valvoline Deal" --- which is basically a "give-away" program to mechanics.

Any "good" Valvoline information that you read elsewhere may be referring to their product line from pre-2002. They reformulated sometime in late 2002 or early 2003. I am also aware of consumption problems --- as in "adding top-off oil" regularly.

There's absolutely nothing special about Valvoline motor oils --- nothing more than Group II and Group III blends --- and average specs. I'm sure Valvoline performs adequately if changed every 3k miles --- and you may not notice a difference in your engines performance for the first 150k miles --- but you certainly will for the second 150k miles --- due to the risks of excess internal wear.

I wouldn't use it in my vehicle simply because there are better oils out there.

It appears to me that price is the issue.

I recommend Mobil1 to anyone that wants a 100% True Synthetic --- at a low price point --- NOT because it is the best synthetic. Just remember --- Mobil1 tends to thin out in some engines --- and also needs "topping off" regularly in some engines --- so I would change Mobil1 every 4k - 5k miles max --- depending upon where you live (climate) and your driving conditions and habits.

Bottom Line --- Synthetics Outperform --- Period.

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SYNTHETIC VS. CONVENTIONAL/HYDROCRACKED PETROLEUM

Conventional lubricants are refined from crude oil which has thousands of types of molecules. Refining is a process of physically separating the impurities from the oil and further separating the light and heavy components. Because refining separates products by weight, it groups molecules of similar weight and dissimilar structure. The result is a lubricant with a wide assortment of molecules. Some of the substances in crude oil are detrimental to lubrication. Paraffins, for example, are a common conventional oil contaminant that causes motor oil to thicken in cold temperatures.

Synthetic motor oils are made from pure chemicals, not refined crude. Their components are chemically reacted to produce finished products with pre-designed performance characteristics. Because of their molecular uniformity, they excel in reducing friction, which improves fuel efficiency, controls heat and reduces wear. This molecular uniformity also helps synthetics resist thinning in hot temperatures and thickening in cold.
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Steven Roark , Amsoil Dealer , Proud Sponsor of www.DodgeDakotas.com

AMSOIL Synthetic Motor Oils, Lubricants, Filtration, and Truck Care Products



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1/19/2004
11:41:29

Amsoil Used Oil Analysis - Valvoline
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Joey1,

I forgot to add ...

A lot of what you read elsewhere is "Virgin" Oil Analysis

... and what you need to be looking at is "Used" Oil Analysis.

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Used Oil Analysis involves sampling and analyzing "used" oil for various properties and materials to monitor wear and contamination in an engine, transmission or hydraulic system. Sampling and analyzing on a regular basis establishes a baseline of normal wear and can help indicate when abnormal wear or contamination is occurring.

Oil analysis works like this. Oil that has been inside any moving mechanical apparatus for a period of time reflects the exact condition of that assembly. Oil is in contact with engine or mechanical components as wear metallic trace particles enter the oil. These particles are so small they remain in suspension. Many products of the combustion process also will become trapped in the circulating oil. The oil becomes a working history of the machine.

Particles caused by normal wear and operation will mix with the oil. Any externally caused contamination also enters the oil. By identifying and measuring these impurities, you get an indication of the rate of wear and of any excessive contamination. An oil analysis also will suggest methods to reduce accelerated wear and contamination.

The typical oil analysis tests for the presence of a number of different materials to determine sources of wear, find dirt and other contamination, and even check for the use of appropriate lubricants.
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Repeat: The Used Oil Analysis results that I have seen have shown some significant differences in Valvoline's ability to offer engine protection, especially after 3000 miles.

__________________________________________________

I hope this cleared things up.



Steven Roark , Amsoil Dealer , Proud Sponsor of www.DodgeDakotas.com

AMSOIL Synthetic Motor Oils, Lubricants, Filtration, and Truck Care Products



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