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Jerry
Dodge Dakota
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9/20/2003
17:04:15
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 Subject: RE: K&N Filters - (any downside?)
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The vehicle in question is a 1997 Dakota.
I put a K&N filter in at 30K miles, and now at 87K the K&N is no more. While doing my winter prep I noticed a few things. My air intake tube was filthy on the inside, as was my throttle body!! I have no oil analysis to back this up, but I shutter to think what gunk got in my engine over that time. I cleaned the filter about every 9K miles.
Today I purchased a Purolator paper filter for my Explorer. The first thing I noticed, the paper filter fits much, much tighter. In fact, I had to wrestle to get the air box snaped down. The K&N was much looser fitting. For some reason, with the paper filter installed, the engine does not seem as loud. I know that sounds stupid, and it's probably my mind playing games on me, but it does seem quieter.
The only drawback is the paper filters are just under $14/each. However, I want her to last as long as possible, so the K&N is no more.
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jdllizard
Dodge Dakota
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9/20/2003
19:06:50
| RE: K&N Filters - (any downside?)
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Derrick answered his own problem "I never cleaned it", of course you'll find dirt after the filter if you never clean it. You have to clean it per K&N's instructions (I belive every 10K miles), if you do, it will last a long time and filter as it should. If you are in harsh environments you can always put on the pre filter like Dr.D said.
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wesb
Dodge Dakota
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9/20/2003
20:23:05
| RE: K&N Filters - (any downside?)
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so you payed a premium for all that extra horse power, missed the fun of changing oil, were the races you won worth the dirt in the motor? Oil air cleaners are a hoax! Sure the idea sounds
great. Spend a little more and get a little more power right. Those instore demos with the fan and air box really get you hyped up! Get the air flow you need with a large cheap paper filter and put your oil change time into going after mods that don't risk getting dirt into the mil. How about some dyno numbers from the KN diehards? Marketing is everything.
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mddaktogo
Dodge Dakota
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9/20/2003
21:33:23
| RE: K&N Filters - (any downside?)
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So I paid fifty some K&N bucks for less than a ten dollar filter performance. The K&N is getting tossed tomarrow. Another over advertised piece of crap.
I wondered about that when I put it in. I can see right thru it - where's the filtering ?????
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Tommy2002
Dodge Dakota
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9/20/2003
21:54:28
| RE: K&N Filters - (any downside?)
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jdllizard,
HamBone said that he cleaned the filter about every 9K miles. K&N recommends every 10k miles. I think you missed this.
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jdllizard
Dodge Dakota
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9/21/2003
00:48:03
| RE: K&N Filters - (any downside?)
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I knew it was right around there. I just didn't have my instruction sheet in front of me. I have the FIPK and it definately helped with throttle response but that is probably because I have a 3" cat back system. If you don't have a way to get rid of the extra air that the K&N is brining in then you won't notice any gains from it. If you do the right mods to go along with the K&N you will notice a difference, maybe not a big one but enough to make me think it was worth it. Oh and I got the drycharger to go over the filter so it filters better and keeps out moisture. Use it and care for it properly and you won't get dirt in the mil.
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mdjohntogo
Dodge Dakota
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9/21/2003
14:18:58
| RE: K&N Filters - (any downside?)
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anybody wanna buy a used K&N filter with about 20K miles on it. went out and bought a regular filter for $ 5
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Dr. D
Dodge Dakota
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9/21/2003
16:26:47
| RE: K&N Filters - (any downside?)
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K&N's flow a lot of DIRT ........ I guess that is why Dodge (and Cummins) recommends against using them in the 5.9L diesels.
Dr. D
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01Motorsport
Dodge Dakota
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9/22/2003
10:38:59
| RE: K&N Filters - (any downside?)
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Follow the directions and re-oil after the filter dries. Do that and you have nothing to worry about. If you're too lazy to do the maintenance, get a paper filter.
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mddaktogo
Dodge Dakota
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9/22/2003
19:10:59
| RE: K&N Filters - (any downside?)
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for $ 53 a filter - they otta do it. I'd rather throw away a $ 5 filter
than screw around with a high priced oily greasy paper foam filter. I got a foam filter on my lawn mower.
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JBME
Dodge Dakota
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9/22/2003
20:43:03
| RE: K&N Filters - (any downside?)
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Yeah, use a K&N. Might as well just shoot a sandblaster into your intake.
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filterbil
Dodge Dakota
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9/23/2003
03:32:17
| RE: K&N Filters - (any downside?)
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Yeah!!! I used a sandblaster to clean my engine once and it messed it all up. So then i decided to use some paper towels and gum to make my own air filter and it sucked..my dog leroy walked in front of my truck and the intake almost sucked him right into the engine.
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MThompson
Dodge Dakota
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9/30/2003
22:28:32
| RE: K&N Filters - (any downside?)
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The Cummins website Dodge link has specific reference to high air flow filters, namely K&N filters in the FAQ. Cummins states that their experience is that such filters like the K&N filter allow enough stuff through to score pistons.
One assumes, since they mention specifically the brand, that they have an evidentiary basis for such a claim.
Just a caution for the cautious. No remarks about airflow, simply piston scoring.
Although Cummins doesn't warrant the Dodge Cummins, they say in the FAQ that DC and Cummins do not allow such filters.
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wg34
Dodge Dakota
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10/01/2003
05:48:08
| RE: K&N Filters - (any downside?)
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[quote]The Cummins website Dodge link has specific reference to high air flow filters, namely K&N filters in the FAQ[/quote]
Thats because the question asked was specifically about K&N filters
Question:"Does DaimlerChrysler authorize the use of high-flow aftermarket air filters such as K&N with my Cummins engine?"
Answer: "No. DaimlerChrysler and Cummins do not recommend the use of increased flow air filters such as K&N, because they can allow contaminants into the intake that can ruin an engine (scoring the sides of the pistons, etc.) "
They weren't saying K&N is worse than any other.
As for being able to see sunlight through it,I'm guessing none of you have taken mechanics(even in highschool). To check and see if a Air filter needs changing you hold it up to a light source,if you see light its still good,no light means it needs to be changed.
Up until a few years ago K&N came factory installed in Dodge's the only reason they stopped was because of a Licensing problem.
My Dodge dealer actually had a Hiflow airintake they were trying to sell me,but I went with a homebrew instead .When I bought my truck ('03) I specifically asked about warranty and Air Intakes and they said there wasn't a problem with them and it was a different dealer than the one that offered to sell me the Air Intake.
I can honestly say I've noticed an improvemnt in performance since adding the AI ,not lowend ,but topend(highway speeds) YES.My wife wasn't aware I'd added the Intake and also mentioned the truck seemed to be running better and was faster,so its not just "MY Wanting it to be faster".
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jeremiah2360
Dodge Dakota
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10/01/2003
17:54:26
| RE: K&N Filters - (any downside?)
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I posted this in the performance board but in case you missed it it`s an interesting read.
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/airfilter/airtest3.htm
If your into oil analysis bobistheoilguy.com is great.
Another interesting one,
http://neptune.spacebears.com/cars/stories/oil-life.html
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Todd
Dodge Dakota
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10/01/2003
21:50:32
| RE: K&N Filters - (any downside?)
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Check out the link below and make you own desicision.
I drive in a lot of dusty areas and offroad in the serria nevada mountians and desert of the southwest, driving which exposes my truck to very dusty air.
I run a K%N Filter and have checked my intake duct and air hat between the filter and the throttle body and have not found any dirt or dust in it.
My K&N filter has been in place over the last two years. Peroidic cleaning and re-oiling appear to be the secert to keeping your engine running clean.
http://www.ducatigarage.netfirms.com/filtertest.html
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wesb
Dodge Dakota
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10/01/2003
22:57:22
| RE: K&N Filters - (any downside?)
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Todd, so you enjoy re-oiling it; what's the benifit? How many horse are you gaining?
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Oily
Dodge Dakota
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10/03/2003
12:02:38
| RE: K&N Filters - (any downside?)
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If you are not suppose to oil the air filters.. then why do all motorcycle filters require oiling? Not THAT is a pain in the A*S!!
I have been using K&N in my last 2 cars ('90 civic and 01 QC) Infact, I just re-oiled the air filter in my dodge last week - after 15k or so, it was still 'wet' and not that bad a shape. $15 per paper filter that you prob change twice a year 'times' say you keep the truck 3 years... that's.... $90. K&N $54 or what ever..... cheaper!
Is it a hassle to clean and re-oil - not that bad a deal, especially when you are doing other things to the truck at the same time (plugs, throttle body cleaning or what ever) the air box has to come off anyway!
As far as it fitting the air box correctly - mine fits perfectly, if not better than the paper ones.
Good luck with what ever you use.
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MTomlinson
Dodge Dakota
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10/03/2003
13:54:17
| RE: K&N Filters - (any downside?)
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Jeremiah,
As I too posted in response to your post on the Performance Thread:
Regarding your first link:
I visited that filter test site (and I've seen it posted other places besides that website). It is a non-scientific, non-standardized "flow" test performed by an individual (novice) and was not published as fact. It was posted for discussion purposes only. As to their "dirt amount verification". How much of what we see is dirt and how much how much is oil? How was he able to seal the filters to prevent contamination? Did the lighting "fool our eyes"?
I don't know what this test proves (if anything at all)!?!? All I see is discolored paper. No microscopic analysis of whether it is dirt or oil, and what size the dirt particles are? Dirt? Oil? Lighting? Etc.? Looks are deceiving and not always what they appear to be. Automotive air filters are not manufactured nor are they intended to clean the air. They are designed to filter out dirt in the 10+ micron size. Also it seems to me that some of the filters in the test were cleaned and re-oiled. I wonder why the that was done? Is it possible that the results using new filters would have been different? Would the test give us the same results if they were tested new out of the box? It would appear to this observer that he is biased from the get go. Maybe he is an air filter salesman of some sort?
Heck, you or I could perform a non-scientific, non-standardized "flow" test in our backyards. What would it prove? It is about as scientific as a beer taste test. Honestly, I would prefer the beer tasting.
This test needs to be filtered itself.... and thrown away.
And as to the second link and their DISBELIEF of long oil drains (10k, 15k, 20k, 25k). Keep reading the article. They are running tests on M1 and AMSOIL and now they are changing their tune. They are believers now!!
Here are their latest results: (brand new car, started with M1 at 10k miles)
We will skip the first 15k miles for brevity sake .....
Mile 16,000 --
Oil/Vehicle miles: 16,026 / 25,965
Oil added after sample: none
Here we are at another sample. With the way Mobil 1 had been going, we instituted a maximum test run of one year. That's only a couple of months away, but it looks like Mobil 1 won't make it after all. The oil has thickened up in a serious way; 30-weight oil tops off with a viscosity of 12.49 cSt, and the 67.8 SUS of this sample converts to 12.36 cSt. The slightest increase in viscosity at the next interval will push it out of range and out of the study.
It's kind of odd, though, that otherwise the oil hasn't aged a bit. Perhaps there's something to all that balderdash about less wear in the summer.
Mile 17,000 --
Oil/Vehicle miles: 17,031 / 26,970
Oil added after sample: 1/2 quart
Oil pressure is noticeably higher than it was before the viscosity went nuts on us, so we're looking forward to finishing this test and moving on. We've decided against using viscosity as a test-ending value, but we'll certainly flag the oil when it creeps out of grade. The viscosity has slipped back down a little, keeping it safely in grade, but the TBN sure has taken a dive. Also note the sudden increase in wear numbers, especially iron and lead. As of this writing we're waffling on whether to continue. Another wrinkle: the insolubles have again reached the trigger point for an oil filter change. Is it worth it, or is it time to put this to bed? Hm.
Mile 18,000 --
Oil/Vehicle miles: 18,021 / 27,960
Oil added after sample: drained oil!
Well, it's done. At long last, we drained the oil. Considering that we've gone two and a half times longer than we thought we'd go, we're pretty impressed by Mobil 1's longevity. We're currently expecting the final results around October 9, with detailed analysis to immediately follow.
Presently, the Z28 is enjoying a relaxing flush fill of Amsoil "ASL" 5W30 synthetic oil, the same oil we will be using (with a refill of course) for the next phase of the study. We're going to begin the Amsoil test when the odometer turns 30,000 miles, which we currently anticipate to be early November.
Clearly, they pushed the M1 to 18k miles (with 1k mile checks and top-offs). Very good. Lets see how far the AMSOIL goes. I'm interested in this test also because I use AMSOIL in my Dak.
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